# Spoil and advise me on The Chronicles of Narnia **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 30, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245 "2009-03-30T01:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/61 "2009-04-01T18:26:33Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > **Skald** , the only thing Bree had good to say about his master was that he himself was treated well because a warhorse is so expensive. But he flat-out told said Shasta would be better off dead than being a human slave in the Tarkaan’s house. Let’s also not forget the description fo the city, either. Lots of people more or less going about their lives happily, and I don’t recall anyone being a jerk just because (except for a Certain Plot-Related Character, but that’s a bit different). And then there’s the king, who was pretty decent by my lights, but unable to really stop A Certain Plot-Related Character from doing Something Naughty. And even said Plot-Related Character did straighten himself up… eventually, and after a lot of hammering by A Certain Religious Allegory. 😃 There, that should cover spoilers. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/62 "2009-04-01T21:45:33Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > The other thing is that it is, for about the first 3/4 of the book, really goddam bleak. It’s a slow, steady progression of everything you love about Narnia being systematically ground into the dirt. Yeah, the scene where: The dwarfs shoot the horses as they come charging up the hill in order to keep the fight “even” broke my heart as a kid. Heck, I don’t even know if I remember it right. I just hated it. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/63 "2009-04-01T22:18:18Z")
As a little kid, I liked \*Horse and His Boy \*least because it offered no fantasy mechanism for getting me from my world to Narnia. As a teen, I started to like the story for itself. As an adult, I still love the story, but I seriously have a problem with the stereotyped Arab thing \*\*jsgoddess \*\*mentioned. It only gets more explicit in \*The Last Battle \*with Tash. I appreciate the explanation that Calormenes who imagine a loving god are really worshiping the Real God and those who imagine a devil even in Aslan’s name are not (I was raised Unitarian and liked it, so the “whichever path you take to Grace is good” theme delighted me), but it doesn’t change the fact that almost all the Calormenes are devil-worshipers. And by implication, that C.S.L. imagined most Muslims to be evil. It may not be racism, but it is a pretty ugly cultural bias. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/64 "2009-04-01T22:47:09Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I used to enjoy this one, but I’m now extremely uncomfortable with the idea of savage, inhumane people who just so happen to look like and share some cultural characteristics with stereotypical Arabs. That’s my problem with TH&HB. I don’t remember reading it as a child, and when I tried as an adult there was too much of the … how do I say this tactfully … “reflection of the mindset of a mid-20th-Century Englishman that may not fit well with today’s mores and values.” I couldn’t get through it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/65 "2009-04-02T01:25:26Z")
> [@emmaliminal](#): > > I appreciate the explanation that Calormenes who imagine a loving god are really worshiping the Real God and those who imagine a devil even in Aslan’s name are not (I was raised Unitarian and liked it, so the “whichever path you take to Grace is good” theme delighted me), but it doesn’t change the fact that almost all the Calormenes are devil-worshipers. And by implication, that C.S.L. imagined most Muslims to be evil. It may not be racism, but it is a pretty ugly cultural bias. I may be remembering incorrectly, but weren’t the Calormenes polytheistic? I think they worshiped a pantheon of gods, with Tash being the most powerful. The Calormenes are obviously inspired by real cultures of the Middle East, but if they aren’t monotheists then that would make their religion not directly analogous to Islam. Has anyone else heard that C.S. Lewis made the Calormenes an Arabic-style (Arabesque?) culture largely because he’d disliked _The Arabian Nights_ as a child? I think I read that years ago, but I can’t remember where so I don’t know if there’s any truth to it. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/66 "2009-04-02T05:42:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Horse and His Boy just might be my favorite one now, too, but it’s definitely a lot more deep and subtle than the others. About 90% of it went straight over my head as a child; it was only when I re-read the series a few years ago that I came to appreciate it. Heh. I think I appreciate the use of quasi-Turks & really showing a different culture that’s still an Earth-like human culture. Also it introduced Archenland. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/67 "2009-04-02T05:46:24Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > One thing to remeber about Susan. It wasn’t because she had gotten superficial. It was because she flat out denied Aslan. She had met him, adventured with him and even saw his resurection. But in the end she refused to believe and rejected it all, saying it was all made up and games. Which is _the_ big sin in Christianity. Well, “he who blasphemes the son of man shall be forgiven,” so I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/68 "2009-04-02T05:53:43Z")
But then it’s not so much rejecting the lion as lying about her own past experiences. Maybe that is like denying the holy spirit, somehow. Or it’s something even worse in Lewis’s mind—just to lie to yourself to fit in with others’ ideas of what is real. Of course, the reign of the Pevensies is a bit awkward, structurally. Lewis never said whether they married or had children. When I was a child, this didn’t bug me so much, but now it sort of does. Susan got to grow to adulthood as a queen, but how did that effect her? It seems that either she did find love & leave a husband and/or children behind in Narnia, or she didn’t & so somehow in hindsight it all seemed a child’s idea of adulthood. Either would be a bit strange to look back on, unless somehow it dropped out of her mind enough that it could be written off as a shared fancy. So maybe Susan’s not as nuts to deny it as she sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/69 "2009-04-02T12:31:44Z")
Lamia writes: \> Has anyone else heard that C.S. Lewis made the Calormenes an Arabic-style \> (Arabesque?) culture largely because he’d disliked _The Arabian Nights_ as a \> child? That doesn’t fit with anything I’ve read about Lewis. I just did a Google to find anybody else making that claim and the only thing I’ve been able to find are people claiming that Lewis included Calormene because he like _The Arabian Nights_ as a child. ---
**Author:** ![Second\_Star\_to\_the\_Right](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Second\_Star\_to\_the\_Right](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Second_Star_to_the_Right)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/70 "2009-04-03T03:37:20Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > One thing to remeber about Susan. It wasn’t because she had gotten superficial. It was because she flat out denied Aslan. She had met him, adventured with him and even saw his resurection. But in the end she refused to believe and rejected it all, saying it was all made up and games. Which is _the_ big sin in Christianity. I can wrap my head around this a little more easily now. When I was doing my poking through Wiki most of the references to Susan cited that one quote from the book which says she is interested in “lipstick and nylons and invitations”. That was what made me think “…and?” But I understand now that she acts as if none of it ever happened. Which, wow-as a few have pointed out, she reigned as Queen of Narnia into adulthood before returning back to our world. That’s some hardcore denial right there! > [@crazycatlady](#): > > Second Star, there are two things you have to remember about The Last Battle. One is that it’s the most overtly religious book of the bunch, and a lot of people don’t particularly care for that aspect. The other thing is that it is, for about the first 3/4 of the book, really goddam bleak. It’s a slow, steady progression of everything you love about Narnia being systematically ground into the dirt. As joyous and beautiful as the last part of the book is, it’s still not really a book to just pick up and while away a lazy afternoon with. This makes me feel I should read the books in between rather than jumping straight to The Last Battle. It sounds as if it’ll have more impact that way. I’d be ok with the religious aspect, I think. I’m not a Christian myself, but religion interests me in general, and even though the whole thing may not coincide with my personal beliefs, I don’t think it’d bother me unless it was really really preachy. This thread is definitely interesting reading-thanks, all! ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/71 "2009-04-06T17:54:39Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Of course, the reign of the Pevensies is a bit awkward, structurally. Lewis never said whether they married or had children. When I was a child, this didn’t bug me so much, but now it sort of does. Susan got to grow to adulthood as a queen, but how did that effect her? It seems that either she did find love & leave a husband and/or children behind in Narnia, or she didn’t & so somehow in hindsight it all seemed a child’s idea of adulthood. Either would be a bit strange to look back on, unless somehow it dropped out of her mind enough that it could be written off as a shared fancy. > > So maybe Susan’s not as nuts to deny it as she sounds. Actually, Susan was being courted by foreign princes. In fact, that’s why they were in Calormen in _The Horse and His Boy_. But she decided, after seeing him in his native habitat so to speak, that she didn’t want the Calormene prince. That’s what made it a little dicey for them to leave, as it looked as if the prince might just decide to take her by force, regardless. It seems that the four Pevensie children got whisked out of Narnia just about the time they would have been taking on true adult, dynastic responsibilities, getting married and such. I’ve always wondered how it felt for them to come back to England and be children again after they’d been not just adults but rulers in Narnia. It must have been quite the adjustment. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/72 "2009-04-06T21:08:41Z")
My interpretation was that Susan was old enough that she could have married, but never got around to choosing from amongst her many suitors (and in fact, may have enjoyed having so many suitors more than she would have enjoyed choosing even the best of them), while Lucy was just about getting to the age where marriage was a real possibility, but not yet old enough that her being single was at all remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/73 "2009-04-06T21:27:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > _Dawn Treader_ is the one I find most enjoyable in the series, and it has its moments of depth, too (Eustace’s baptism, for instance). I like the theme of adventure and exploration just for its own sake. _Horse_, though, is much deeper. My favorite, by far, is **The Magician’s Nephew** –Lewis (IMO) never in any of his other writings\* captured the…atmosphere..the texture he got in **TMN** -from the unnatural stillness of The Wood Between The Worlds to the weight and tiredness and fallen grandeur of Charn to the absolutely joyful singing of Narnia into existance (especially the bit where Aslan sings the stars in and they join in the song in harmony) to the very, VERY intense moment where Digory passes the test that Adam failed\*\* **TMN** is easily my favorite. Plus, Uncle Andrew’s attempt to ‘court’ that Dem Fine Woman Jadis is gut-bustingly funny. \*Maybe **The Great Divorce** , but only maybe… \*\*He _didn’t_ take the apple. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/74 "2009-04-06T21:44:21Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > My favorite, by far, is **The Magician’s Nephew** –Lewis (IMO) never in any of his other writings\* captured the…atmosphere..the texture he got in **TMN** -from the unnatural stillness of The Wood Between The Worlds to the weight and tiredness and fallen grandeur of Charn to the absolutely joyful singing of Narnia into existance (especially the bit where Aslan sings the stars in and they join in the song in harmony) to the very, VERY intense moment where Digory passes the test that Adam failed\*\* **TMN** is easily my favorite. Plus, Uncle Andrew’s attempt to ‘court’ that Dem Fine Woman Jadis is gut-bustingly funny. > > \*Maybe **The Great Divorce** , but only maybe… > \*\*He _didn’t_ take the apple. I’m torn about Nephew. On the one hand, it has the best moment in all the Chronicles, when Aslan notices\* Digory’s fear and worry about his mother’s illness and says “Grief is great. Only you and I in this land know that yet. Let us be good to one another.” But…I can’t help but think that, even for a kid’s book, having Mabel Kirke magically healed is a cheat. It’s a didactic mistake. What Aslan said to Digory when He broke his rule about explaining what would have happened\*\* is correct: Death is a natural part of human existence, and sometimes it IS better to die. Continued life is not always a mercy. I know why Lewis did it that way, of course. I just think it was an artistic error and at odds with the aim of his books. \*Well–takes notice of. Being Aslan, he knew all along, of course. That is what “Aslan” means. \*\*Yeah, that’s right. Aslan broke a rule. He’s wise enough to know that sometimes you have to. That is also what “Aslan” means. “Aslan” means a lot of things. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/75 "2009-04-06T22:07:22Z")
> [@thirdwarning](#): > > It seems that the four Pevensie children got whisked out of Narnia just about the time they would have been taking on true adult, dynastic responsibilities, getting married and such. I’ve always wondered how it felt for them to come back to England and be children again after they’d been not just adults but rulers in Narnia. It must have been quite the adjustment. The recent movie version of _Prince Caspian_ touches on this. I don’t remember exactly what happens in the scene, but at the beginning one of the boys (I think Peter) gets into a fight at the station (maybe defending another child?) shortly before they are all transported back to Narnia. Susan reminds him that they aren’t Kings and Queens anymore and have to act like ordinary children, and whichever of the boys it is says he knows but that it’s difficult. There’s also a bit of rivalry between Peter and Caspian later in the film, with Peter feeling that he is properly the High King of Narnia. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/76 "2009-04-06T23:36:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m torn about Nephew. On the one hand, it has the best moment in all the Chronicles, when Aslan notices\* Digory’s fear and worry about his mother’s illness and says “Grief is great. Only you and I in this land know that yet. Let us be good to one another.” > > But…I can’t help but think that, even for a kid’s book, having Mabel Kirke magically healed is a cheat. It’s a didactic mistake. What Aslan said to Digory when He broke his rule about explaining what would have happened\*\* is correct: Death is a natural part of human existence, and sometimes it IS better to die. Continued life is not always a mercy. I see your point but I always read it as “Your mother was sick and that gave you the opportunity to make the right choice. Now that you have made the right choice (in following my will and laws) you can see in a way you’ll understand that it only brings goodness.” not “Ok-you won the prize! Poof! Mommy’s better.” Digory was…what? 8? at the time? I feel like Aslan was meeting Digory on Digory’s level–saying “Yup, she won’t live forever, but I can make her not be sick any more.” But even granting (and I’m not sure I do) that it was a mistake, it’s still so much more my favorite than any of the others, I’d forgive a hell of a lot more than just that. 😉 The only other Narnia book that even comes close for me is **Wardrobe** –and mainly only in the first half–once the thaw starts, (to me) the book loses all that weird, otherworldly atmosphere and becomes a fantasy novel. **Nephew** never loses the otherworldliness. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/77 "2009-04-07T02:16:06Z")
> [@](#): > > …once the thaw starts, (to me) the book loses all that weird, otherworldly atmosphere and becomes a fantasy novel. Nephew never loses the otherworldliness. This puzzles me… Isn’t the otherworldliness precisely what makes a fantasy novel? Or, at least, a good one? You’re enough of a connoisseur of the genre that I’m certain you have some subtle, nuanced distinction you’re making here, but darned if I can tell what it is. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/78 "2009-04-07T02:47:40Z")
A passage at the end of _The Last Battle_, with the Pevensies seeing their parents waving at them from a bit of a distance away left me feeling that Mum and Dad Pevensie died at the same time as their kids (although not on the train). In any event, there they were in the “real” England as opposed to the “Shadow Lands” England where Susan had been left behind. But I had never thought of them as being deceased at the time of the train trip. Am I the only one who thought that Susan had lost, not only her brothers, sister, and cousin, but also her parents, in one fell swoop? ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/79 "2009-04-07T02:52:25Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But…I can’t help but think that, even for a kid’s book, having Mabel Kirke magically healed is a cheat. It’s a didactic mistake. What Aslan said to Digory when He broke his rule about explaining what would have happened\*\* is correct: Death is a natural part of human existence, and sometimes it IS better to die. Continued life is not always a mercy. > > I know why Lewis did it that way, of course. I just think it was an artistic error and at odds with the aim of his books. I can’t say whether it was an artistic error or not, I just want to point out that Aslan is supposed to be Christ. And Jesus Christ is most famous for…healing people who ask him to. ---
**Author:** ![Elyanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5ac83/32.png) [@Elyanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elyanna)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245/80 "2009-04-07T03:31:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Am I the only one who thought that Susan had lost, not only her brothers, sister, and cousin, but also her parents, in one fell swoop? Peter says they were on the train: “[His parents] were on their way to Bristol. I’d only heard they were going that morning. But Edmund said they’d bound to be going by that train.” So yes, she did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoil-and-advise-me-on-the-chronicles-of-narnia/491245.md?page=5)