# (SPOILER ALERT) are there factual errors in "Bowling For Columbine"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 29, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516 "2002-12-29T17:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mogiaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mogiaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mogiaw)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/21 "2002-12-31T19:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*Did I miss something? Was this film presented as a documentary? \*\* As far as i am aware it **is** supposed to be a documentary. To Quote Michael Moore- “…my new film, “Bowling for Columbine,” was awarded the Special Prize of the 55th Cannes Film Festival. It had already made history by being the first \*\*documentary \*\* chosen to be part of the official festival competition in almost 50 years. And, last night, it was the only prize awarded that received a unanimous decision from the festival jury.” from [http://theconversation.org/moorecannes.html](http://theconversation.org/moorecannes.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/22 "2002-12-31T20:50:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Treviathan \* > \*\*If Moore can paint Canada in such an exaggerated, one-dimesional manner, what’s preventing him from doing the same for the situation in the U.S.? \*\* Heavens, you may be right! After all, it’s not like he has an _agenda_, or anything. No, he’s a serious maker of objective documentaries. :rolleyes: [sup]–Whatever, Mikey…[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/23 "2002-12-31T21:32:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Tygr_ > Heavens, you may be right! After all, it’s not like he has an agenda, or anything. What do you think Moore’s agenda _was_ with BFC? It wasn’t gun control. Moore never once tries to make an argument for gun control in the film, in fact he specifically _dismisses_ the argument that guns cause violence. (also, Moore is a lifelong member of the NRA and is a former sharpshooter and gun safety instructor) ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/24 "2002-12-31T22:07:52Z")
It was pretty obvious he was denouncing the “fear sells” hysteria of American news. KILLER BEES. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/25 "2003-01-01T00:29:00Z")
AFRICANIZED killer bees, no less. Remember, you can tell them from European bees because of their larger anatomy. ---
**Author:** ![sbic56](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@sbic56](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbic56)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/26 "2003-01-01T03:09:27Z")
I saw BFC and have to agree that Moore is a showman. It didn’t come on like a typical documentary because of him, but it was. Were things slanted? Sure. Views are slanted in every episode of 60 minutes, or any other documentary. There were enough facts, however, to imply a definite situation that is unique to the US. We are overall more violent here as opposed to any other first world nation. Then it gave a reasoning as to why. Fear. Was in rather sensational? Sure, but it left me thinking of how we live in a different way. It made it’s point. What really was eerie to me was that Marilyn Manson was the sanest interviewee in the documentary. He philosophy was fairly impressive. “What would you say to the klids of today?” Moore asks. “I wouldn’t say anything, I’d listen.” he said. Anyway…I like the movie. It is not an “insult my intelligence” caliber of movie, so it passes. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/27 "2003-01-01T03:42:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*What do you think Moore’s agenda _was_ with BFC? It wasn’t gun control. Moore never once tries to make an argument for gun control in the film, in fact he specifically _dismisses_ the argument that guns cause violence. (also, Moore is a lifelong member of the NRA and is a former sharpshooter and gun safety instructor) \*\* Moore has always admitted that he joined the NRA with the intention of becoming involved and changing it from a firearm owners rights organization\* to purely a shooting sports organization. \*at least nominally ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/28 "2003-01-01T04:08:50Z")
I hope this doesn’t sound too much like either Hannibal Lecter of the Uptown White Ladies League Guide to Social Etiquette, but the thing that most offended me about BFC (and for the record, I believe in reasonable gun control measures and think Heston is as full of shite and himself in some order as most faded superstars) was the rudeness of the attack on Heston. This probably sounds really nellie and pollyanna, neither of which is me, but to me it’s the epitome of rudeness to accept a gracious invitation into somebody’s home and there assault their views and then air it, after editing, to their detriment. While I wouldn’t have cared less if he’d ripped Heston to shreds in a public arena of debate, the spitting on his hospitality was just somewhere between poor manners and the most crass showmanship. I didn’t have the least clue what Moore was trying to prove with Dick Clark, incidentally. On one of Moore’s increasingly unfunny TV shows, he spent a 20 minute segment evidently trying to prove that Ted Turner is really really rich, which honestly wasn’t news to me, and that many products sold at Wal-Mart are made overseas by children, which also wasn’t news. For all his muckraking, I don’t really know what his point is or who’s life is better off for his efforts other than his own. While I loved ROGER & ME and its sequel, Moore is increasingly entering the zone of people who have all of Howard Stern’s classlessness and egomania without Howard Stern’s realization that he’s a classless egomaniac. Moore reminds me also of the type described in one of David Sedaris’s books as “the type who is pretty sure that when the Revolution comes his job will involve walking around with a clipboard giving instructions”, or a Robespierre Chi Lenin wannabe who if he ever actually got power would abolish dissenting speech overnight and be worse than any of the powerful he’s ever trashed. ---
**Author:** ![sbic56](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@sbic56](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbic56)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/29 "2003-01-01T04:18:48Z")
He was pretty damn rude…I didn’t like that piece either. The basis for the the Dick Clark attack was weak. Somebody died and he tried to associate Clark to it…senseless. I will try to see his older movies though. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/30 "2003-01-01T11:15:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\* > Heston came across as a total windbag, though. Not only did he refuse to respond to Moore’s questions about the timing of the NRA rallies in Columbine and Flint, he also insinuated that gunrelated homicides are higher in the US because of the greater ethnical diversity. When pressed to elaborate on that, he weaseled and squirmed. To me, it was obvious what he meant. What a jackass. \*\* Charleton Heston was a civil rights activist before it was popular to do so - so implying that he’s racist seems misdirected. Perhaps he was making a comment on the statistical facts (which I think are true, IIRC) that culturally diverse societies tend to be more violent than culturally homogenous societies. He was asked to explain the violence, and assumably (I haven’t seen so) tried to do so in a logical manner. Which got him, of course, knee-jerk reactions of “Racist southern gun nut!!!” ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/31 "2003-01-01T11:18:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*What do you think Moore’s agenda _was_ with BFC? It wasn’t gun control. Moore never once tries to make an argument for gun control in the film, in fact he specifically _dismisses_ the argument that guns cause violence. (also, Moore is a lifelong member of the NRA and is a former sharpshooter and gun safety instructor) \*\* Then why was the interview with Charleton Heston necesary? And wasn’t there some scene where he tried to inspire an emotional knee-jerk reaction by leaving a picture of a dead girl on Charleton Heston’s patio or something? ---
**Author:** ![mogiaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mogiaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mogiaw)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/32 "2003-01-01T19:35:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\* Perhaps he was making a comment on the statistical facts (which I think are true, IIRC) that culturally diverse societies tend to be more violent than culturally homogenous societies. \*\* I’m curious, do you have a cite for this? My [Immigration Control Platform](http://www.immigrationcontrol.org) friends might want to have a gander. Mogiaw ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/33 "2003-01-01T21:10:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Treviathan \* > **IIRC, Moore interviews a slack-jawed Windsor police officer who states that he can only remember there being one murder in Windsor in the past three years. […] [this site](http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/011031/d011031b.htm) shows that Windsor, over the course of the 1990’s, averaged seven homicides per year. In 2000, they had six. Which made me wonder how many police officers Moore interviewed before he found the yokel with the shoddy memory who would support his argument.** “Homicide” does not mean the same thing as “Murder.” If 20 people get run over by cars and killed, and in one of the cases the driver did it deliberately, then there have been 20 homicides but only 1 murder. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/34 "2003-01-01T21:21:04Z")
I’m not implying Heston is racist. I’m _saying_ that his half-assed implication (“we’re more violent because we’re ethnically more diverse”), which he did NOT expand or elaborate upon, even after being asked twice by Moore, came across as potentially racist **because** he didn’t elaborate. For what it’s worth: countries like the Netherlands and the United Kingdom are just as diverse, if not more, than the US. Why aren’t they more violent? I’m not suggesting I have the anwer: I just know the answer “it’s because we’re more ethnically diverse” is a load of crap. As far as Moore being rude to Heston: I’m assuming Heston gave his OK for the material afterwards - or is his invitating Moore in an implicit approval of all that’s filmed next? I honestly don’t know how that would work. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/35 "2003-01-01T21:38:56Z")
Heston apparently agreed to the interview. Unless the interview was conditioned on the right to approve the use of any of the footage, that’s all the permission Moore needs. **Senor Beef** , Heston may have been a supporter of civil rights (not just guns) decades ago, but his statements in recent years have bordered on bigotry. For instance, I found a copy of a 1997 speech where he had this to say: > [@](#): > > Heaven help the God-fearing, law-abiding, Caucasian, middle class, Protestant, or—even worse—Evangelical Christian, Midwest, or Southern, or—even worse—rural, apparently straight, or—even worse—admittedly heterosexual, gun-owning or—even worse—NRA-card-carrying, average working stiff, or—even worse—male working stiff, because not only don’t you count, you’re a downright obstacle to social progress. Your tax dollars may be just as delightfully green as you hand them over, but your voice requires a lower decibel level, your opinion is less enlightened, your media access is insignificant, and frankly mister, you need to wake up, wise up and learn a little something about your new America…in fact, why don’t you just sit down and shut up? > [@](#): > > The Constitution was handed down to guide us by a bunch of those wise old dead white guys who invented this country. Now, some flinch when I say that. Why? It’s true…they were white guys. So were most of the guys who died in Lincoln’s name opposing slavery in the 1860s. So why should I be ashamed of white guys? Why is “Hispanic pride” or “black pride” a good thing, while “white pride” conjures up shaved heads and white hoods? Why was the Million Man March on Washington celebrated in the media as progress, while the Promise Keepers March on Washington was greeted with suspicion and ridicule? I’ll tell you why: Cultural warfare. > > Now, Chuck Heston can get away with saying I’m proud of those wise old dead white guys because Jesse Jackson and Louie Farrakhan know I fought in their cultural war. I was one of the first white soldiers in the civil rights movement in 1961, long before it was fashionable in Hollywood—believe me—or in Washington for that matter. In 1963 I marched on Washington with Dr. Martin Luther King to uphold the Bill of Rights. I’m very proud of that. As vice-president of the NRA I am doing the same thing. > [@](#): > > I find my blood pressure rising when Clinton’s cultural shock troops participate in homosexual-rights fund-raisers but boycott gun-rights fund-raisers… and then claim it’s time to place homosexual men in tents with Boy Scouts, and suggest that sperm donor babies born into lesbian relationships are somehow better served and more loved. [http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/speech.html](http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/speech.html) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/36 "2003-01-01T22:37:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mogiaw \* > \*\*I’m curious, do you have a cite for this? > My [Immigration Control Platform](http://www.immigrationcontrol.org) friends might want to have a gander. > > Mogiaw \*\* No - I don’t - just the memory of an article I read a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/37 "2003-01-01T22:50:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Heston apparently agreed to the interview. Unless the interview was conditioned on the right to approve the use of any of the footage, that’s all the permission Moore needs. > > **Senor Beef** , Heston may have been a supporter of civil rights (not just guns) decades ago, but his statements in recent years have bordered on bigotry. For instance, I found a copy of a 1997 speech where he had this to say: [http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/speech.html](http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/speech.html) \*\* I don’t see his statements as bigotry whatsoever. (Hey, maybe that makes me a biggot!). He’s referring more to the double standard applied against what he sees as people people with tradtional, conservative values. He’s angry at a double standard applied to those like him, and isn’t, as far as I can see, trying to claim any superiority of his race or anything like that. I’m not sure I see the biggotry. In the second quote, he describes the double standard a bit more - ‘black pride’ is acceptable and encouraged by society at large, etc. In the third, I guess that’s the closest to biggotry - but seems like irritation at the willingness to support all rights but the right to self defense. Anyway, since we were discussing his (implied) racist tendencies, you’ll have to explain to me why these statements are racist or biggoted. I agree with the sentiment that there is a double standard against ‘traditional values’ in this country, and largely agree with his sentiment - does that make me a biggot? Personally, I think the very fact that speaking out about the double standard applied to Christian/Gun Owning/Middle Class/Whites/etc. automatically gets you lablled as a bigot is only more proof that there is a double standard. Had a minority, islamic, gay rights activist, or somesuch, made similar statements, he’d be considered a Great Messenger for his Noble Cause. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/38 "2003-01-01T23:12:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > I don’t see his statements as bigotry whatsoever. I never figured you would. I’ll let his words speak form themselves, though. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/39 "2003-01-02T00:24:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*I never figured you would. I’ll let his words speak form themselves, though. \*\* I asked you to explain why you thought his statements were biggoted. When presenting quotes meant to show biggotry, it seems a reasonable question. Instead, you’ve basically responded with implying “Oh, I KNEW you’d say that, you’re just as bad as him!” But fine - your words can speak for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516/40 "2003-01-02T00:31:12Z")
I had no intention of slamming you with that statement. I simply declined your invitation to debate the meaning and subtext of Heston’s speech in a Cafe Society thread. Since I’m not going to debate it here (nor elsewhere, since it would be a singularly unproductive discussion), I said I’d let his words speak for themselves. No offense intended. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoiler-alert-are-there-factual-errors-in-bowling-for-columbine/145516.md?page=3)