# \*Spoilers\* Just finished seasons 1 & 2 Mad Men marathon - Some observations and a question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 16, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624 "2009-08-16T15:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/1 "2009-08-16T15:33:11Z")
Maybe it’s because I’ve poured the show into my head over the past few days vs letting it flow in slowly over 2 seasons, but I am confused about some aspects. Don Draper is presented as a generally loyal and honorable man in the workplace, but he is an uber hound and has absolutely no loyalty to his wife. I think based on responses (especially women’s in online forums who think he is a delectable piece of man candy) that he is supposed to be tortured and conflicted on this issue, and may be I could have gone along with this for a few shows, but after a while it’s obvious that for him it’s just vagina, after vagina, after vagina, and you really have to step back and say to yourself that he is serial cheater and liar and not a very good man. I means, seriously, he just betrays his wife and family at the drop of a hat, and despite her childishness, and a not so latent mean streak of her own, at some point his lack of any compunction about fucking anything willing and female kind of exhausts your good will for him. Even on his repent and find himself stint in California he’s knee deep in rich girl euro-trash poon. What is reason his wife Betty set up her married horse riding friend with the handsome blond guy (getting married) for them to have a date and affair? What was the psychological dynamic there? Why is she doing this? Also with Betty and the divorced mom’s creepy young kid, I really do get some kind of weird inappropriate borderline seductive vibe here. What’s really going on? Is it just that they are both lost children or what? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/2 "2009-08-16T17:47:53Z")
There are two Don Drapers (and I don’t include the one that died in Korea). There is the original Don Draper (aka Dick Whitman) who grew up poor and abused. Then there is the new and improved Don Draper who is a successful ad exec and married to a model. The original Don is supposed to be a sympathetic guy. He just wants a simple life, married to a simple woman with a simple job (e.g., repairing cars). The new Don is a phony skirt-chasing jerk who blew off his brother. The new Don doesn’t consider his marriage to Betty to be “real” so cheating is okay. (And Betty has started to feel the same way. Her friend suspected this and encouraged it.) Don Draper’s inner conflict is the driving theme of the series. The AWOL in California arc highlights this. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/3 "2009-08-16T18:26:22Z")
No, he’s not a very good man. That’s really the point. Yet, he’s a likeable man, and he disappoints you when he fucks up, which is also the point. The whole show is about identity - who is Don Draper? Who does Don even want to be? Is Don ever happy? Why not? The other characters suggest the same question - can you change something that happened by ignoring it or forgetting it? Do you deserve better? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/4 "2009-08-16T19:57:53Z")
Interesting to see the different points of view. I thought Don was a sociopath, but then he occasionally shows human compassion. Throughout the second half of season one I figured he was sending his wife to the shrink preparatory to getting her thrown in a mental hospital. I guess the writers decided not to go that way. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/5 "2009-08-16T20:18:07Z")
> [@astro](#): > > What is reason his wife Betty set up her married horse riding friend with the handsome blond guy (getting married) for them to have a date and affair? What was the psychological dynamic there? Why is she doing this? That was a puzzling sequence. I think Betty just wanted her friend to be as miserable as she was. ISTR that her friend was bragging about her wonderful marriage. But I could be remembering wrong. It could have been that the friend was whining about a loveless, boring marriage and Betty wanted **someone** to be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/6 "2009-08-16T20:22:02Z")
No, I think he really cares about her and doesn’t want her to get hurt, it’s just that he’s, you know, not so good at knowing how he feels or what he wants. Remember with his girlfriend, when he couldn’t tell until he looked at a picture that she was in love with somebody else? ETA - that’s in response to the mental hospital thing ETAA - and I think Betty wanted to share her misery and prove it to herself that everybody else is unhappy, too. ---
**Author:** ![lunar\_elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lunar\_elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lunar_elf)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/7 "2009-08-16T23:23:19Z")
> [@astro](#): > > What is reason his wife Betty set up her married horse riding friend with the handsome blond guy (getting married) for them to have a date and affair? What was the psychological dynamic there? Why is she doing this? > > Also with Betty and the divorced mom’s creepy young kid, I really do get some kind of weird inappropriate borderline seductive vibe here. What’s really going on? Is it just that they are both lost children or what? I just watched the second season on DVD with all the director and actor comments. Here’s what I recall… Basically what it all comes down to Betty hasn’t grown up. We see this when she sets up her friend and the riding guy. It’s like she’s back in HS. Her friends didn’t _have_ to sleep together, even though her girl friend was all ga ga over the guy. She just wants everyone else to be unhappy too. There was a scene in another episode, where they blew off a party and just sat around the house drunk all day (Bobby broke the bed), but she said one of the songs they were dancing too reminded her of high school. Everything always seems to go back to her in HS. If you do have the opportunity, the director commentaries are fantastic on the DVD. Yes it is crazy to watch the episode 3x just to hear all of them, but the directors are great and the actor ones are pretty hilarious for Season 2. Also with the young kid, Betty is pretty much seen as a kid too. That’s why they connect. You see this a lot in the first season. Her clipping the hair and giving it to him, the way he looks at her. The compliments she gets from him, it’s what any young girl, would want. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/8 "2009-08-17T00:00:11Z")
> [@lunar\_elf](#): > > Also with the young kid, Betty is pretty much seen as a kid too. That’s why they connect. You see this a lot in the first season. Her clipping the hair and giving it to him, the way he looks at her. The compliments she gets from him, it’s what any young girl, would want. More than this, I think that it’s because their situations are perfectly parallel. Betty is infantilized at home and the power dynamic between her and her husband isn’t much different from the kid and his parents. She sees that this kid has some basic needs and wants that aren’t being met, and these are the same unmet needs that _she_ has. Instead, she (like the kid) just has to make do with having a roof over her head, while being shut out in every other meaningful sense. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/9 "2009-08-17T00:42:52Z")
Just a random fact: the boy that is in love with Betty, Glenn, is played by Matthew Weiner’s son Marten. My take on Don Draper is that he has highly compartmentalized his life, which is what allows him to be a good guy in some ways (his treatment of Peggy, for instance) and a bastard in others (his utter disregard for Betty’s dignity). He’s complicated because his identity is fragmented. I think of him as sort of an iteration of Jay Gatsby. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/10 "2009-08-17T02:49:16Z")
First of all, _Mad Men_ is not (and is not intended to be) a realistic portrayal of the 'Sixties. Rather, it is a kind of satire of the nostalgia of the dark underbelly of the period of post-war, baby boom prosperity, kind of _The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit_ if it were directed by Douglas Sirk or Billy Wilder. The character of Don Draper (the ‘fake’ Draper) is an allegorical representation of the conflict between superficial Victorian-esque, Wonder-Bread-and-mayonnaise values that the culture of the United States returned to in the 'Fifties versus the new-found sexual freedom and liberation of the 'Sixties. To speak of Don being ‘good’ or ‘bad’ is missing the point; Don really has no values of his own, no heritage to build upon, and even within the show he is a fiction of a man, an image of success and vitality which is strictly an artifact of his own creation. Draper is whatever he has to be to fit into the situation; his ability to become the _ubermensch_ in any situation is also his failing, in that he is a default leader, followed by others, but doesn’t have a clue as to where he is going next. Like the advertising campaigns he so carefully crafts, he is all front and back but hollow in between, filled in with consumer products (apparently mostly cigarettes and Old Fashioneds), meanwhile trying to find some kind of fulfillment in what he believes (or at least has sold himself on) to be the perfect lifestyle; a house in the 'burbs, the beautiful blonde ex-model wife, the 2.3 kids, and dog. (Note that after a day of drunken frustration at trying to put together a playhouse and disappearing after picking up the cake, he actually returns with a Golden Retriever, creating the perfect picture of suburban life even as he acts like a “complete heel.”) However, this life isn’t any more satisfying than being Dick Whitman, so he embarks on yet another life, one of debauched hedonism with women who would be socially unacceptable for him to marry (a bohemian artist, a Jewish department store owner, a comedy promoter from low class upbringing). It is interesting it is this life that we see first, and it seems an appealing one, devoid of obligation and responsibility, but ultimately Don is drawn to and honors, if in erratic fashion, the commitments he is subject to (supporting the real Don Draper’s wife, providing financially for his half-brother, protecting the knowledge of Peggy’s pregnancy and abandoned baby), but at the same time, fails in many of the responsibilities of his marriage, fatherhood, and even on occasion his job. He is, in other words, an avatar of the American culture of his time; embracing social liberalism and responsibility on one hand, but at the same time repressed by his past shame and lack of true identity, seeking to escape to a new frontier, not that of Horace Greeley’s “Go West, young man,” but of publicity and technology capable of manipulating the social fabric. He’s not supposed to be likable, or even really understandable as a person. Other major characters can be seen in similar vein. Personally, the character I find most intriguing is Joan Holloway (notwithstanding that she looks like a real world incarnation of Jessica Rabbit), and I hope they develop her further. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/11 "2009-08-17T03:22:13Z")
I find Joan _sad_, because she’s so totally stuck and has the ill fortune to know it (and I don’t know how she’s going to be a character if she goes on and gets married, because I don’t see her husband allowing her to work), but I don’t see her as all that interesting. I like her as a character, but I don’t have to wonder what she’s thinking or how she feels, you know? She’s heartbreaking, but she’s no mystery. The way the actor portrays Don, though - what’s _in_ there? Did he _mean_ that? It’s almost as if Don is a ghost, and everybody just reacts to him - that there’s no actual Don. What is a man like that like? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/12 "2009-08-17T04:55:33Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I find Joan _sad_, because she’s so totally stuck and has the ill fortune to know it (and I don’t know how she’s going to be a character if she goes on and gets married, because I don’t see her husband allowing her to work), but I don’t see her as all that interesting. I like her as a character, but I don’t have to wonder what she’s thinking or how she feels, you know? She’s heartbreaking, but she’s no mystery. The way the actor portrays Don, though - what’s _in_ there? Did he _mean_ that? It’s almost as if Don is a ghost, and everybody just reacts to him - that there’s no actual Don. What is a man like that like? In reading various online comments women who view this show seem endlessly fascinated by this ghostly man, and (it appears) really seem to think he is just the hottest thing since sliced bread. They seem almost sympathetic to his angst than repelled by his behavior. Are very attractive people forgiven everything? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/13 "2009-08-17T06:36:28Z")
James Gandolfini isn’t attractive, but women ‘forgave’ Tony Soprano for being a murderous villian and thought he was hot. So what? You’re reading too much into it. Don Draper is charismatic, attractive, intelligent, and mysterious. That’s what makes him attractive. Women understand that he’s just a character and doesn’t have to be a reflection of their morals to be appealing. There are lots of appealing villians in TV and movies. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/14 "2009-08-17T06:36:47Z")
Did you see the 30 Rock episode “The Bubble” where Jon Hamm guest starred? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/15 "2009-08-17T06:51:20Z")
I’ve always found Alan Sepinwall’s ([nj.com](http://nj.com)) analysis of each episode particularly useful in forming a better understanding of the underlying themes. Googling his name and the episode title will usually bring you straight to the relevant article. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/16 "2009-08-17T11:16:04Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In reading various online comments women who view this show seem endlessly fascinated by this ghostly man, and (it appears) really seem to think he is just the hottest thing since sliced bread. They seem almost sympathetic to his angst than repelled by his behavior. Are very attractive people forgiven everything? I think people are sympathetic to his angst because he’s acting out the confusion and fragmentation that a lot of people feel but never have the nerve or ability to act on. A lot of people are ashamed of and scarred by their childhood and long to leave it behind, to shed it completely and become a “better” version of themselves, to live the American Dream. Subsequently, they realize that the Dream is a trap as well, all style and no substance, and wish that they were allowed to enjoy the freedom to dabble in parts of life that would be forbidden to them in that Dream life. Don Draper explores all those fantasies and looks damn good doing it. Thus, he is interesting, because you can live vicariously through him and see that there really is no perfect life to be had, and you definitely can’t have it all at the same time and still be happy. This is similar to the reason people enjoyed watching Tony Soprano-- he was living a life that people though, on the surface, would be glamorous and exciting, but got to see that really, overall it wasn’t. It sucked, he was suffering, he was a screwed up. miserable person. But if someone has to be your proxy in a tour of a personal hell, at least it can be someone charismatic, attractive, complicated, and cool. It’s not that Don Draper is “forgiven everything.” How can we watch the show if we are not compelled by the main character despite his flaws and weaknesses? While I think Jon Hamm is dead sexy, Don Draper is not someone who I’d want to be involved with. I am interested in seeing how his social experiment of a life turns out, though. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/17 "2009-08-17T13:12:10Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In reading various online comments women who view this show seem endlessly fascinated by this ghostly man, and (it appears) really seem to think he is just the hottest thing since sliced bread. They seem almost sympathetic to his angst than repelled by his behavior. Are very attractive people forgiven everything? Not in real life, of course. But yes, there’s a fantasy element to Don - wouldn’t you like to just say to hell with it and go and be whatever you thought you wanted to be? And to _get away with it_? That’s his smirk, you know - that “Holy crap, they’re _buying it_! They _always let me get away with it!_” feeling. And on one level, we want him to get away with it because, hell, don’t you wish you could? Jon Hamm is dead sexy, though. I don’t think the show would work as well if he weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/18 "2009-08-17T15:03:54Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Jon Hamm is dead sexy, though. I don’t think the show would work as well if he weren’t. In the 3rd season opener, Don and Sal are on a plane and are essentially propositioned by a flight attendant. After she goes, Sal whispers to Don, "I’ve flown before, but I’ve never seen a stewardess this game."I said to my fiance, “That’s because he’s not Jon Hamm.” ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/19 "2009-08-17T18:56:04Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In reading various online comments women who view this show seem endlessly fascinated by this ghostly man, and (it appears) really seem to think he is just the hottest thing since sliced bread. They seem almost sympathetic to his angst than repelled by his behavior. Are very attractive people forgiven everything? [This article](http://www.alarmingnews.com/archives/008330.html) says basically says what I’ve always suspected: a virile philandering cad _is_ attractive because of his virility and philandering, and feminist talk to the contrary is all rationalization. > [@](#): > > “A man’s man. A virile man. A masculine man. Strong terms. And ones that would make our postmodern gender-studies professors blush. After all, we’re the generation of women who grew up beating the boys in math class, reading Judith Butler (by choice or by force), celebrating “Grrl” power. Traditional male-female roles were going out the window while we were still toddlers. And maybe that’s why we feel a little guilty when we stop to admit to ourselves why Draper excites us. Because we’re not supposed to be using those terms anymore to describe our desires. Those words threaten a backsliding—they hint at some deep, unspoken turbulence; that, as if by saying we want a “real man,” we threaten to erase all the gains our mothers made in terms of equality in the workplace and the home. After all, we don’t believe in that evolutionary “me Tarzan, you Jane” nonsense anymore.” > > And yet, the fact is that “me Tarzan, you Jane” is ultimately what makes us hot. That’s what these feminists, who are trained to really, truly believe they want a man who is mostly like a woman, admit in these posts “tee hee, I know I’m not supposed like this, but I kinda do.” You know why? Evo-freaking-lution. Women like the men who take care of them. Whether it’s put food on the table or beat back the saber-tooth tiger. We’re programmed to crave the man who behaves…like a man. > > “We’re supposed to want men who are sensitive and respectful; men who emote and help around the house, and talk openly about their feelings. And we do want these things. Don’t we? So then why are we fantasizing about Draper rather than Jim from The Office?” > > Ahhh, “supposed to want”. As soon as you go from “want” to “supposed to want”, something very bad happens. You are not fulfilled by what you’re “supposed to want.” There are many, many women who actually want Jim from the Office (for those who don’t watch the show, he’s a nice, sweet guy, not a lot of RAAAWR in him, if you know what I mean). He’s trustworthy, kind and hilarious. He’s also quite attractive. Maybe not in a leading man way like Don Draper but so what? Jim is catch. But if you think you’re “supposed to want” Jim while really wanting a Don, you’ll never be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624/20 "2009-08-17T19:47:46Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > [This article](http://www.alarmingnews.com/archives/008330.html) says basically says what I’ve always suspected: a virile philandering cad _is_ attractive because of his virility and philandering, and feminist talk to the contrary is all rationalization. Ooh, it all comes down to Them Feminists! I could write a bunch about _Mad Men_ & may later. But I want to answer the keening whine of The Nice Guy first. Don Draper is beautiful & fascinating–like a tiger in the wild. But most of us know that a tiger wouldn’t make a good roommate. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-just-finished-seasons-1-2-mad-men-marathon-some-observations-and-a-question/506624.md?page=2)