# \*\*\*SPOILERS\*\*\* UFC - Griffin/Silva **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 9, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814 "2009-08-09T04:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/21 "2009-08-11T03:22:57Z")
I can’t give Fedor #1. At one time sure, but he isn’t facing the top tier talent on a consistent basis like the other people on the list. Lesnar definitely not, he is a great fighter and talented but I suspect without his size he would be more like Josh Koschek. I do think that Couture fight was a competitive close fight until Brock caught him not near the one sided affair you make it sound like. BJ Penn is awesome but he got absolutely man handled by St. Pierre. At one time he was the better fighter but after their last fight GSP has improved much more the Penn. I would like to see GSP step up and fight a class above to see what happens. At his weight he can take people down absolutely at will and I think he would be able to do that at higher weight classes. I wonder how much the bulk up would slow him down? After Machida completely worked Tito without getting touched I was impressed. I think he has a BJJ blackbelt too. Silva I still hope Hendo beats on the rematch. > [@](#): > > ``` > A lot of the posters at the UFC forums are rather critical of Forrest's run back to the locker room after his loss to Silva. > > ``` > > Has Forrest’s attitude changed since being pounded out by Jardine? He doesn’t seem to be as “stubborn” as he used to be. A couple people on the boards have said he had a broken/dislocated jaw and lost hearing in one of his ears. But that’s pure scuttlebutt I haven’t seen a confirmation. EDIT: Found confimation > **[tollbit-host.com](http://ww38.tollbit-host.com/sport/othersports/boxingandmma/5998996/Forrest-Griffin-camp-reveal-dislocated-jaw-as-Anderson-Silva-contemplates-Lyoto-Machida.html)** > > This domain may be for sale! ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/22 "2009-08-11T04:30:09Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > I can’t give Fedor #1. At one time sure, but he isn’t facing the top tier talent on a consistent basis like the other people on the list. This is just ridiculous. Not just because you’re saying it-- no offense to you-- but because so many people are saying it. It’s honestly just ignorant IMO. I absolutely love the UFC and I even love Dana White, but this is smear propaganda spread by Dana because he has as yet failed in signing Fedor. Believe me, when he eventually signs him, the headline will be that he signed “the best fighter on the planet,” and then everybody on the internet will be saying it again. Arlovski and Sylvia were both top 10 when Fedor fought them (EDIT: In fact, Arlovski was #2) and he absolutely demolished both of them, far worse than anyone else ever has. And even if this were true, it’s just fickle “what have you done for me _lately_” crap. Not to mention ::ahem:: Patrick Cote and Thales Leites? Please. > [@Miltonyz](#): > > Lesnar definitely not, he is a great fighter and talented but I suspect without his size he would be more like Josh Koschek. I do think that Couture fight was a competitive close fight until Brock caught him not near the one sided affair you make it sound like. I’m not saying it was a one-sided affair. I’m just saying Randy was doing much better than people give him credit for and much better than he should’ve done against a guy 60lbs heavier than him if that guy was truly an all-time great. Lesnar is good but he has a lot of work to do before he reaches great, and only time will tell if he gets there or not. > [@Miltonyz](#): > > BJ Penn is awesome but he got absolutely man handled by St. Pierre. At one time he was the better fighter but after their last fight GSP has improved much more the Penn. I honestly don’t even consider that fight. Even if St. Pierre hadn’t cheated, which he did, he still outweighed BJ by a ridiculous amount. If we’re talking “pound for pound”, losing to a guy who outweighs you by 25 or 30lbs shouldn’t effect your standing very much. > [@Miltonyz](#): > > A couple people on the boards have said he had a broken/dislocated jaw and lost hearing in one of his ears. But that’s pure scuttlebutt I haven’t seen a confirmation. EDIT: Found confimation > > [tollbit-host.com](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/boxingandmma/5998996/Forrest-Griffin-camp-reveal-dislocated-jaw-as-Anderson-Silva-contemplates-Lyoto-Machida.html) That article is very poor journalism :dubious:. First of all it makes it sound like Silva is gunning for Machida, when in actuality they are “training partners and brothers” (their words) and have repeatedly refused suggestions that they fight each other. Plus, this article directly contradicts it, with an actual source: [Griffin uninjured, not dealing well with loss](http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ys-mmaweekly081009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) > [@](#): > > Reports surfaced on Sunday that Griffin had suffered a jaw injury and that was the reason for his hasty exit, but [MMAWeekly.com](http://MMAWeekly.com) was able to confirm with representatives from Zinkin Entertainment, Griffin’s management group, that he is physically fine following the Saturday night fight. > > Griffin suffered no broken jaw and he is physically OK, said the Zinkin representative, but emotionally he is definitely not dealing well with the loss. Looks like whoever wrote the article you linked to just picked up on a rumor and reported it as true. ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/23 "2009-08-11T13:52:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I honestly don’t even consider that fight. Even if St. Pierre hadn’t cheated, which he did, he still outweighed BJ by a ridiculous amount. If we’re talking “pound for pound”, losing to a guy who outweighs you by 25 or 30lbs shouldn’t effect your standing very much. Now why would you post so much good info, and then totally discredit yourself like this? 🙂 I like BJ, but this is one of those “you can have your own opinion but not your own facts” situations. I don’t know what to do with top 5 PFP right now. The top three have got to be Fedor, GSP, and Silva. But among those three, how do you rank them? I probably put Fedor number 1, then Anderson, then GSP. The only reason I do it that way is that Fedor just hasn’t really come close to losing in a long, long time (at least, not that I can recall). GSP looks unbeatable these days, but it wasn’t that long ago that he got caught. And while Anderson keeps steam rolling people, he has been put into some pretty vulnerable positions that make me think that there is a fighter out there who can beat him. Lyoto is fourth with a bullet and BJ comes in fifth in my rankings. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/24 "2009-08-11T14:25:31Z")
> [@TheFifthYear](#): > > Now why would you post so much good info, and then totally discredit yourself like this? 🙂 I like BJ, but this is one of those “you can have your own opinion but not your own facts” situations. Which facts? That Georges cheated? It’s well-known. He was reprimanded by the Nevada State Athletic Commission and the UFC for it. The rules of the sport were changed because of the stunt he pulled in that fight, at least in Nevada if not everywhere. The only reason Georges got off the hook was because he claimed he didn’t realize his corner was greasing him, which is just preposterous as far as I’m concerned. You can’t have vaseline rubbed all over you without realizing it, especially if you’re a professional athlete who knows it’s against the rules. [Link](http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/feb/03/grease-gate-clouds-st-pierres-dominant-win/) > [@](#): > > [Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith] Kizer said the commission has already warned St. Pierre’s camp of their misconduct of inappropriately rubbing Vaseline on St. Pierre’s back, shoulders and chest[.] > > “The penalty for a licensee who violates commission rules can be a fine, or suspension, or revocation. How far this will go? I don’t know.” > > Vaseline is used to aid with cuts in boxing and MMA, but applying to other parts of the body inside the octagon is illegal as wrestling and various holds are vital. A slippery fighter would have an added advantage, as grip and friction would be compromised. > > “The first round, one of the inspectors that was on the outside of the cage came over to me and said it looked to him that when the cornerman, who I think in that case was Phil Nurse, put the Vaseline on Georges’ face then rubbed his shoulders — which you see the guys rubbing the other guy’s shoulders to help him out —he didn’t wipe off his hands between doing that. I said, ‘Well, I’m going to watch very closely after this round,’” Kizer told [MMAjunkie.com](http://MMAjunkie.com). > > "At the end of the second round I watched, and then another cornerman who I believe was Greg Jackson, he put the Vaseline on Georges’ face, and then he put his hand on his back to do the breathing thing they always do. As soon as I saw that, it looked like there was still some Vaseline on his hand. Not a lot, but still some. > > “Tony Liano and I immediately yelled at him, and I don’t think he heard us because of the noise,” continued Kizer. “So I actually went into the octagon, and I said, ‘Take your hand off of his back. What are you doing?’ We wiped it down. We made sure it was wiped down after the third round as well. This was after the second when I was in there. I was very upset. I don’t know if they were doing it intentionally or not. Either way, they shouldn’t have done it.” > > While UFC president Dana White said he felt the Vaseline didn’t change the outcome of the fight, the point was it was an illegal action. > > "You could have put Vaseline on from head to toe, that wasn’t the point, the point was you don’t do it. It’s illegal,” White said. “The guy who did it needs to be punished, it’s not (St. Pierre’s) fault. The question is what happens to a guy that does that. You’ve got to put the smack down on him. > > Kizer said he felt an “avoidable incident” has cast a negative cloud on arguably the biggest night in the sport’s history. > > “I think it definitely hurts St. Pierre a little bit because people will always wonder if it had any impact or not,” he said. > > “I don’t think it had much of one, but it shouldn’t have happened at all. Obviously it’s illegal and definitely unfortunate to Penn and also unfortunate to St. Pierre.” Now which one of those facts is my own? I just disagree that it didn’t have much of an impact. It obviously did. Penn wasn’t able to hold his rubber guard on St. Pierre’s greased back, which allowed Georges to execute his ground and pound. The fight should have been ruled a No Contest. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/25 "2009-08-11T16:23:20Z")
> [@](#): > > “The first round, one of the inspectors that was on the outside of the cage came over to me and said it looked to him that when the cornerman, who I think in that case was Phil Nurse, put the Vaseline on Georges’ face then rubbed his shoulders — which you see the guys rubbing the other guy’s shoulders to help him out —he didn’t wipe off his hands between doing that. I said, ‘Well, I’m going to watch very closely after this round,’” Kizer told [MMAjunkie.com](http://MMAjunkie.com). > > "At the end of the second round I watched, and then another cornerman who I believe was Greg Jackson, he put the Vaseline on Georges’ face, and then he put his hand on his back to do the breathing thing they always do. As soon as I saw that, it looked like there was still some Vaseline on his hand. Not a lot, but still some. So… residual Vaseline from having wiped it on his face, and… > [@](#): > > “Tony Liano and I immediately yelled at him, and I don’t think he heard us because of the noise,” continued Kizer. “So I actually went into the octagon, and I said, ‘Take your hand off of his back. What are you doing?’ We wiped it down. We made sure it was wiped down after the third round as well. This was after the second when I was in there. I was very upset. I don’t know if they were doing it intentionally or not. Either way, they shouldn’t have done it.” …then he was wiped off before the second and third round. Yeah, GSP would have gotten his ass kicked if he weren’t so thoroughly lubed up. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/26 "2009-08-11T18:09:28Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > So… residual Vaseline from having wiped it on his face, and… > > …then he was wiped off before the second and third round. Yeah, GSP would have gotten his ass kicked if he weren’t so thoroughly lubed up. Go rub some vaseline on your big giant husband’s back and see if you can towel it off well enough that your sweaty leg won’t slide around it worse than if Bambi had been born onto a banana peel. You can’t. [This video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvk5kp7sRHw) is WAY over-edited but if you’re patient with it it covers most of the relevent points. And [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyPkMqbe-Cc&feature=fvw) is famous cutman Jacob “Stitch” Duran talking about the incident and what a game-changer it was. I was a fan of both fighters going into the fight and just wanted to see a good, clean fight. Obviously we didn’t get to see that. I don’t understand why Georges St. Pierre fans are so vocal about defending what was an obviously an unfair fight. If they think their guy is the best, they should want to see him prove it on a level playing field. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/27 "2009-08-11T18:33:43Z")
No, I will not rub Vaseline on his back. I will rub some on his face, then touch his back with that same hand without wiping it off first. After that, I will have a third party wipe his back down, and if he’s still slippery to the point of being ungrippable (is that a word?), I will book a first class flight to Phoenix, AZ today and buy you all the champagne you can drink, then give you an A+ blowjob. Fact\*. \*not really ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/28 "2009-08-11T20:13:31Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > No, I will not rub Vaseline on his back. I will rub some on his face, then touch his back with that same hand without wiping it off first. After that, I will have a third party wipe his back down, and if he’s still slippery to the point of being ungrippable (is that a word?), I will book a first class flight to Phoenix, AZ today and buy you all the champagne you can drink, then give you an A+ blowjob. Fact\*. Watch some of the videos that are out there. Phil Nurse has gobs of the stuff palmed. He even tries to hide a wad of it in his pocket at one point when the athletic commission is checking them out. No joke. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > \*not really Yeah right. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Leonard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@Leonard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leonard)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/29 "2009-08-11T21:50:33Z")
Actually, wiping it off is part of the strategy. It still remains in the pores, and as soon as the guy sweats again it gets pushed back out. Yet the guy was clean at the start of the round, if anyone cared to check him. It’s a pretty old trick. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/30 "2009-08-13T04:53:21Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Griffin better have had something legitimately medically wrong with him or else his stock just went way, way down. Even Joe Rogan called it the most embarassing knockout in UFC history. He looked like the Forrest Griffin of 2005 but without the heart. > > In other news . . . BJ Penn impressed as expected. I love how Kenny worked for the takedown the entire fight while BJ punished him in the clinch and on the breaks, and then BJ goes for his first takedown attempt, executes it textbook-perfectly, and finishes the fight with a minute. Bring on Diego Sanchez. Yes. I know that I’m speaking from inexperience, but I can’t understand how Kenny never wrapped his arms around BJ’s butt and just picked him off the floor, to throw him down. It was almost like he didn’t think of it. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/31 "2009-08-13T05:05:36Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > Yes. I know that I’m speaking from inexperience, but I can’t understand how Kenny never wrapped his arms around BJ’s butt and just picked him off the floor, to throw him down. It was almost like he didn’t think of it. Penn has some of the best takedown defense in the sport. It’s like asking why Lance Armstrong didn’t think of just riding right past Alberto Contador a couple weeks ago. I’ve tried to take wrestlers down before and it’s almost funny how hard it is. And I’m sure BJ has more talent in his pinky toe than anyone I’ve ever tangled with. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/32 "2009-08-26T02:38:24Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I can’t decide who had a worse gameplan, Forrest or Kenny. > > “Try to brawl from the outside with the most dangerous striker in MMA” or “Try to take a mundial jiu jitsu wizard to the ground.” I think there is a common misconception among viewers of MMA that taking a jiu-jitsu expert to the ground is always a big mistake. The problem with that line of thinking is that jiu-jitsu is a martial art that encompasses many types of position specific skills. Jiu-jitsu does not just involve submitting people from your back. It also involves taking people down, passing their guard, holding people under you and controlling them, transitioning to advantageous positions like the “mount” or their back, etc. As such, somebody with, say, a good closed guard who is good at submitting somebody from their back may be relatively weak when they are on top of their opponent or vice versa. A world class jiu-jitsu athlete may be completely dominating in one position, yet “average” black belt level in another. When people hear that competitor X is a “jiu-jitsu wizard” they automatically assume that they will be outstanding at winning fights from their back – but this is frequently not the case. For example, BJ penn clearly has the best top game in MMA. If he manages to take you down, he will pass your guard, mount you, take your back, and end the fight. He also excels at regaining a standing position once he has been taken down. However, submitting people from his back has never been his strong suit – he has never submitted someone from his back in his MMA career. Consequently, having BJ penn on top of you – very, very bad. Having BJ penn under you – MAY be good, depending on how good your top game and ground and pound skills are. [QUOTE=Cisco] I just disagree that it didn’t have much of an impact. It obviously did. Penn wasn’t able to hold his rubber guard on St. Pierre’s greased back, which allowed Georges to execute his ground and pound. [/QUOTE] It is hard to say what type of impact the vaseline had. It is important to remember a couple of things though. 1. Rubber guard has never been worked successfully in the UFC against a top calibre opponent. 2. BJ Penn has never been known for his rubber guard. 3. Reaching your legs up and controlling your opponent with a high guard is NOT easy regardless of how slippery someone is – especially when they are bigger and stronger than you and focused on countering what you are doing. 4. St. Pierre’s top game is probably second only to that of Penn. Personally, I dont think the vaseline made any difference in the fight. BJ Penn was not going to submit him with rubberguard. And it looked to me like the rubberguard was failing more from St. Pierre powering out of it then slippage. I think the closest St. Pierre came to being in trouble was when Penn was fighting to take him down with a single leg. Having Penn on top of you is a very bad place to be. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/33 "2009-08-26T03:28:14Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > I think there is a common misconception among viewers of MMA that taking a jiu-jitsu expert to the ground is always a big mistake. The problem with that line of thinking is that jiu-jitsu is a martial art that encompasses many types of position specific skills. Jiu-jitsu does not just involve submitting people from your back. It also involves taking people down, passing their guard, holding people under you and controlling them, transitioning to advantageous positions like the “mount” or their back, etc. As such, somebody with, say, a good closed guard who is good at submitting somebody from their back may be relatively weak when they are on top of their opponent or vice versa. A world class jiu-jitsu athlete may be completely dominating in one position, yet “average” black belt level in another. > > When people hear that competitor X is a “jiu-jitsu wizard” they automatically assume that they will be outstanding at winning fights from their back – but this is frequently not the case. > > For example, BJ penn clearly has the best top game in MMA. If he manages to take you down, he will pass your guard, mount you, take your back, and end the fight. He also excels at regaining a standing position once he has been taken down. However, submitting people from his back has never been his strong suit – he has never submitted someone from his back in his MMA career. > > Consequently, having BJ penn on top of you – very, very bad. Having BJ penn under you – MAY be good, depending on how good your top game and ground and pound skills are. Right. This would be applicable in a fight with a guy like St. Pierre, or Hughes, or even Sherk, but we’re talking about Kenny Florian. > [@](#): > > 1. Rubber guard has never been worked successfully in the UFC against a top calibre opponent. I’m not sure if that’s true, but FWIW it’s not used an awful lot in the UFC. > [@](#): > > 1. BJ Penn has never been known for his rubber guard. Watch his fight with Gomi Takanori. > [@](#): > > 1. Reaching your legs up and controlling your opponent with a high guard is NOT easy regardless of how slippery someone is – especially when they are bigger and stronger than you and focused on countering what you are doing. Agreed, but we are talking about a guy who can put his leg behind his head without using his arms. His legs have been described as extra arms. > [@](#): > > 1. St. Pierre’s top game is probably second only to that of Penn. Now that I totally agree with. > [@](#): > > Personally, I dont think the vaseline made any difference in the fight. Personally, I really don’t know. I called GSP to win it by superior size and strength, and it initially appeared that he did, but the vaseline changed the big giant exclamation point at the end of the victory to a question mark. As far as I’m concerned, whether he would’ve won or not (and again I think he probably would have, which makes it all the more confounding) Georges St. Pierre is and will forever be a cheater and a disgrace to the belt. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/34 "2009-08-26T15:58:09Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Right. This would be applicable in a fight with a guy like St. Pierre, or Hughes, or even Sherk, but we’re talking about Kenny Florian. I don’t think it would have been a bad thing for Florian to take down Penn. He has good enough jiu-jitsu not to do something stupid and, if nothing else, it would have scored points in the judge’s eyes. Penn certainly looked like he had no desire to be takien down. If being on his back against Florian was such an advantageous position for him, one might imagine him pulling guard. The problem was Florian’s gameplan seemed to be based on the idea that Florian’s pace would tire Penn out, allowing for the takedown. Penn was never even remotely close to being taken down. And for some reason, Florian abandoned his greatest weapon – his kicks. > [@Cisco](#): > > Watch his fight with Gomi Takanori. I’m confused as to why you would reference Penn’s fight with Gomi as evidence that he is known for his rubber guard. 1. Penn does not use any rubberguard in that fight. 2. The only two occasions in which Penn uses a high guard of any kind (maybe you confused this with rubberguard?) are brief and ineffective. On one occasion he locks up a high guard for a few seconds and on the other he attempts an omaplata shoulder lock. In both instances he soon switches to what he does best from the bottom – establish a butterfly guard, push Gomi’s hips away, and stand up. 3. 99% of this fight is either exchanges on the feet or Penn mauling Gomi with his top game. Penn certainly has the physical attributes to make for an effective rubberguard game (ie extreme flexibility). But I have never seen him do anything other than occasionally thow up an opportunistic high guard if he happens to be in position. I’ve never seen him use anything that looked like Eddie Bravo’s system of moves. And why would he? Why lock himself into the bottom position when he is so good at getting out, such a good boxer, and possessing a dominating top game? > [@Cisco](#): > > Fighting outside of his weightclass would help towards his legitimacy in a lot of people’s eyes, since he is so much bigger than most of his opponents…Georges St. Pierre and Thiago Alves are both known to be over 190lbs; though Georges has been claiming lately that he’s around 188, that’s not was he was saying a couple years ago, and he looks bigger now. I think he was feeling criticized for being the biggest welterweight and is trying to downplay his size now. There’s a picture out there somewhere of him standing next to (heavyweight) Randy Couture, and besides being an inch or two taller, Randy does not look much bigger. I think this is something that has been emphasized somewhat inaccurately by UFC commentators early on. St. Pierre is a good sized welterweight (from what I understand, 185-190 off season), but certainly not enormous. As far as legitimacy in his weight class, both the #2 and #3 ranked contenders (Fitch and Alves) are bigger than he is, so that argument doesn’t make much sense. Hughes is no small fry himself. Randy couture is a very small heavyweight who normally weighs around 220. In fact, he is smaller than a number of light heavyweights such as Forrest Griffin and Tito Ortiz. I would not expect him to look significantly larger than someone who weighs 185-190. Additional anecdotal evidence: My former jiu-jitsu instructor trained with St. Pierre’s camp prior to his 3rd fight with Hughes. My instructor is very strong, weighs around 195-200. When he came back, I asked him what St. Pierre looked like in person. Was he huge? My instructor said that he was really surprised – St. Pierre looked MUCH smaller than he expected. He actually described him as “small and slender, with a really tiny waist” for whatever that is worth. St. Pierre is no weakling, but from what I gather, its his quickness that makes him really tough. Fitch talks about this after losing to him. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/35 "2009-08-26T16:09:12Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > I don’t think it would have been a bad thing for Florian to take down Penn. He has good enough jiu-jitsu not to do something stupid and, if nothing else, it would have scored points in the judge’s eyes. Penn certainly looked like he had no desire to be takien down. If being on his back against Florian was such an advantageous position for him, one might imagine him pulling guard. > > The problem was Florian’s gameplan seemed to be based on the idea that Florian’s pace would tire Penn out, allowing for the takedown. Penn was never even remotely close to being taken down. And for some reason, Florian abandoned his greatest weapon – his kicks. I just can’t imagine what Florian would’ve done had he gotten than takedown. BJ would’ve swept and then we know what would’ve happened. > [@misterW](#): > > I’m confused as to why you would reference Penn’s fight with Gomi I must be misremembering it or confusing it with another fight. I haven’t seen it in a long time. That’s not how I remember it playing out but I believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/36 "2009-08-26T16:20:24Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think it would have been a bad thing for Florian to take down Penn. He has good enough jiu-jitsu not to do something stupid and, if nothing else, it would have scored points in the judge’s eyes. Penn certainly looked like he had no desire to be takien down. If being on his back against Florian was such an advantageous position for him, one might imagine him pulling guard. The other problem for Florian is that Penn is extremely hard to take down. GSP is one of the best wrestlers in MMA and he couldn’t do it in the first round. You also have to be extremely confident in your conditioning to attempt shot after shot. > [@](#): > > St. Pierre is no weakling, but from what I gather, its his quickness that makes him really tough. Fitch talks about this after losing to him. It appeared to me that Alves was much stronger then GSP during that fight. That explosive shot more then makes up for strength. That’s what makes Lesnar dangerous at heavyweight. People get down on him, because he is stronger then anyone else in the heavyweight class by a mile. But the reason he is winning is that for such a huge man he has a ridiculously fast shot. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/37 "2009-08-26T16:39:42Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > It appeared to me that Alves was much stronger then GSP during that fight. Yeah, Alves is an outlier in the welterweight division. He’s preternaturally strong and I mean that potentially very literally. He’s been busted for masking agents before. He’s also been known to struggle making the 170lb limit. I’m not sure it’s physically possible to be stronger than him and be in fight shape. Fitch, on the other hand, I think was just babbling incoherently after a humiliating loss. “He didn’t feel strong,” yeah right buddy, whatever you say, here, keep this ice on it. > [@Miltonyz](#): > > That explosive shot more then makes up for strength. That’s what makes Lesnar dangerous at heavyweight. People get down on him, because he is stronger then anyone else in the heavyweight class by a mile. But the reason he is winning is that for such a huge man he has a ridiculously fast shot. Lesnar was a legit wrestler. I don’t hate him for being a WWE guy because I had no idea he was in the WWE. I heard of him when it hit the news that he was coming to MMA. I was resentful towards him for awhile for getting a title shot after being 2-1, but hey, it’s not his fault he puts asses in seats. I’m starting to really respect his abilities. He’s more eager to learn striking and jiu jitsu than I expected him to be, and from the training videos I’ve seen, it looks like both are coming along nicely. He’s going to be very tough to figure out. I’m not sure who in the UFC could do it right now. Carwin, much as I like him, I don’t think has much of a chance. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/38 "2009-08-26T17:03:01Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I just can’t imagine what Florian would’ve done had he gotten than takedown. BJ would’ve swept and then we know what would’ve happened. I agree that Florian probably wouldn’t have been able to maintain the position long unless BJ was completely exhausted. I think BJ would have just stood back up. This is a good site to watch old fights: [http://www.mma-core.com/](http://www.mma-core.com/) A good one from the past to rewatch is Serra vs. Penn. Good fight, and it is interesting to see their strategies and how they play out. Serra is determined to take Penn down. Penn wants nothing to do with the ground and is determined to make it a standing battle. On the few occasions where Serra does take him down, he just cannot hold him down. And Serra has a world class top game. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/39 "2009-08-26T17:11:19Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > People get down on him, because he is stronger then anyone else in the heavyweight class by a mile. But the reason he is winning is that for such a huge man he has a ridiculously fast shot. Yeah, Lesnar is just an absolutely amazing physical specimen. The sort that doesn’t come along very often. Call me crazy, but I would pick him over Fedor. I just think it would be a poor match up for Fedor – a very small heavyweight. Fedor has good jiu-jitsu off his back, but so does Frank Mir, and look what happened there. I don’t see Fedor avoiding Lesnar’s shot. An aging Mark Coleman took him down before getting submitted. And Lesnar is still in the steep part of his learning curve. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814/40 "2009-08-26T17:18:29Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Yeah, Lesnar is just an absolutely amazing physical specimen. The sort that doesn’t come along very often. Call me crazy, but I would pick him over Fedor. I just think it would be a poor match up for Fedor – a very small heavyweight. Fedor has good jiu-jitsu off his back, but so does Frank Mir, and look what happened there. I don’t see Fedor avoiding Lesnar’s shot. An aging Mark Coleman took him down before getting submitted. And Lesnar is still in the steep part of his learning curve. Fedor is the one heavyweight I definitely would not pick him over. Coincidentally, Choi is one of the few fighters who might be as strong or stronger than Brock, and we saw how that turned out. Frank didn’t train much off his back because he got cocky and thought it was going to be a standup war. I don’t think Fedor minded in the least having Coleman on top of him. He might have even baited him into that position. He wouldn’t use that strategy with Brock. I think his fight with Lesnar would go down a lot like his fights with fellow giants Zuluzinho and Tim Sylvia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spoilers-ufc-griffin-silva/505814.md?page=3)