# Spontaneous abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722 "2005-08-12T14:02:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/1 "2005-08-12T14:02:17Z")
In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=295689&page=1&pp=50&highlight=spontaneous+abortion) thread I made the assumption that a citizen has an obligation to report a death. I was unable to find anything specifically on point, although there were certain case where such reporting is required. Now, the N.C. legislature has made [concealing a death](http://www.newsobserver.com/news/ncwire_news/story/2713469p-9150875c.html) a crime. (registration may be required) From the link– _The measure, approved unanimously by the Senate, makes it a felony to conceal a death, fail to notify law enforcement of a death or secretly dispose of a body. Someone who assists with the act is guilty of a misdemeanor._ This, in conjunction with [this](http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm) information about spontaneous abortion–from the link– _It is estimated that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among known pregnancies, the rate of spontaneous abortion is approximately 10% and usually occurs between the 7th and 12th weeks of pregnancy._ brings these thoughts to mind, A) If a life is created at conception, do these fertilized eggs spontaneously aborted represent a human death? B) Does failure to report such an abortion violate the law? C) What are the moral responsibilities of one who believes that life begins at conception, and is aware that potentially a death may have occurred? I might add that _any_ woman who is sexually active and mentruating _potentially_ aborts with every menstrual period. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/2 "2005-08-12T15:29:23Z")
I thought we covered this back in that shriekfest you linked to. IIRC, it was decided that most states clearly state in some statute when a birth certificate may be issued (for all live births, of course, but also for miscarriages after viability, generally) and any spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) which takes place after that point would need to be reported. Far too progressed to worry about the woman not knowing she was pregnant - we’re talking after kicking and significant weight gain. Of course, there’s always those few weirdos who deliver healthy and live babies never knowing they were pregnant. Never underestimate the powers of denial… What do you want to talk about that we didn’t cover before? Or do you just want new voices in the fray? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/3 "2005-08-12T15:36:09Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I thought we covered this back in that shriekfest you linked to. IIRC, it was decided that most states clearly state in some statute when a birth certificate may be issued (for all live births, of course, but also for miscarriages after viability, generally) and any spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) which takes place after that point would need to be reported. Far too progressed to worry about the woman not knowing she was pregnant - we’re talking after kicking and significant weight gain. > > What do you want to talk about that we didn’t cover before? Or do you just want new voices in the fray? I am interested in cases not covered by the statutes you mentioned, i.e., before viability. Also, in that ‘shriekfest’, it was asserted that that there was no legal requiement to report a death, aside from the misarriage law. That is no longer the case, at least in North Carolina. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/4 "2005-08-12T15:40:44Z")
Thanks for the clarification. Not being a lawyer, I’ll be lurking in eager anticipation to see what those with more knowledge than I have to say. Maybe we can get some solid info before the GDing starts. (I expect the vagueness of the wording re: when during the lifespan reporting is required will make this one of those laws challenged in court and more refining will happen then.) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/5 "2005-08-12T16:04:43Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > A) If a life is created at conception, do these fertilized eggs spontaneously aborted represent a human death? Yes. > [@](#): > > B) Does failure to report such an abortion violate the law? Don’t know. Perhaps one could argue that, by the letter of the law, these should be reported. One could also argue that an exception should be written into law for such cases; after all, what good does it do to report a spontaneous abortion? > [@](#): > > C) What are the moral responsibilities of one who believes that life begins at conception, and is aware that potentially a death may have occurred? I might add that _any_ woman who is sexually active and mentruating _potentially_ aborts with every menstrual period. Are we morally responsible if the death of an infant (or for that matter, an adult) is not caused by malice or negligence? Certainly not. By the same token, a spontaneous abortion does not automatically imply any moral culpability on anyone’s part. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/6 "2005-08-12T16:17:17Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Yes. > One could also argue that an exception should be written into law for such cases; after all, what good does it do to report a spontaneous abortion? > Are we morally responsible if the death of an infant (or for that matter, an adult) is not caused by malice or negligence? I suppose I was unclear with my use of the word “moral.” I did not mean moral in the sense of responsible for the death, but responsible for the reporting. I suppose I could have said ‘religious’ but I am less concerened with doctrine than with what an individual might believe. Another way to ask the question of one who believes that life begins at conception would be– What distinctions do you draw between a life ended by spontaneous abortion, and one ended in some other way, if any? Do your moral or religious beliefs require you to treat this death as you would any other? Do the same rites and attendant traditions apply? What responsibility do you owe the community at large, or your religious community, if you have one? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/7 "2005-08-12T16:20:07Z")
Women often abort fertalized eggs without even knowing they’re doing it. It just comes as part of their regular menstrual cycle and they never know the difference. Beyond that, I don’t see how a law requiring women to report miscarriages could pass a constitutional challenge. It violates the woman’s right to privacy. The government is not entitled to know if a woman is pregnant or not, and since a fetus is not a person, there is no “death” involved, just a change in the physical condition of the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/8 "2005-08-12T16:31:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Women often abort fertalized eggs without even knowing they’re doing it. It just comes as part of their regular menstrual cycle and they never know the difference. As was linked in the OP. > [@Dio](#): > > Beyond that, I don’t see how a law requiring women to report miscarriages could pass a constitutional challenge. It violates the woman’s right to privacy. The government is not entitled to know if a woman is pregnant or not, and since a fetus is not a person, there is no “death” involved, just a change in the physical condition of the woman. This is a law requiring that all _human deaths_ be reported. As was linked in the OP. My question is whether spontaneous abortions are considered human deaths by those who believe life begins at conception. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/9 "2005-08-12T17:10:59Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > This is a law requiring that all _human deaths_ be reported. As was linked in the OP. My question is whether spontaneous abortions are considered human deaths by those who believe life begins at conception. Well, yeah, of course. But that says nothing about wheat the laws “believe”. And, for public discourse, that’s really all that matters, isn’t it? I suppose if a life-begins-at-conception woman wants to fill out death notification paperwork with each period, she can. But I won’t be, and it doesn’t seem reasonable to assume it would be required. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/10 "2005-08-12T18:00:12Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Well, yeah, of course. > > But that says nothing about wheat the laws “believe”. And, for public discourse, that’s really all that matters, isn’t it? I suppose if a life-begins-at-conception woman wants to fill out death notification paperwork with each period, she can. But I won’t be, and it doesn’t seem reasonable to assume it would be required. I’m not sure what “laws believe” means. Can you elaborate? Do you believe that life begins at conception? If so, do you have any beliefs concerning the disposition of a dead human; religious, moral, or otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/11 "2005-08-12T18:06:54Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > A) If a life is created at conception, do these fertilized eggs spontaneously aborted represent a human death? > > B) Does failure to report such an abortion violate the law? > > C) What are the moral responsibilities of one who believes that life begins at conception, and is aware that potentially a death may have occurred? I might add that _any_ woman who is sexually active and mentruating _potentially_ aborts with every menstrual period. Per Roe v Wade, life doesn’t begin at conception. Roe v Wade would override state laws. Morality is subjective. IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/12 "2005-08-12T18:16:07Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Per Roe v Wade, life doesn’t begin at conception. Roe v Wade would override state laws. > > Morality is subjective. > > IANAL. Exactly. Subjective thought is what I am asking for. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/13 "2005-08-12T18:41:54Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Per Roe v Wade, life doesn’t begin at conception. Exactly where does Roe v Wade say that? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/14 "2005-08-12T18:49:26Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Exactly where does Roe v Wade say that? If legally life begins at conception, than legally terminating any life after conception logically is murder. I meant that in a legalistic sense. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/15 "2005-08-13T05:16:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I’m not sure what “laws believe” means. Can you elaborate? I mean that which laws affirm to be true: that space is not for parking in; thou shalt not turn on red; murder is bad. I can accept individuals believing any thing they like, but it’s what laws “believe” or, less metaphorically, what laws state I can and cannot do, that I get worked up over. This law seems a little hazy to me. I’d like to see the language made more specific about the gestational or postpartum age of a human which bears reporting. I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume the lawmakers were intending or would like to recieve notification of pre-viable embryos, and certainly not of ones so early on that their loss can be masked by menstruation. I think, until given court decisions to the contrary, that whatever age the state uses as it’s rubrick for legal abortion would be a logical one to use for the lower level of this law. (Unless they require reporting of abortion, which opens a whole 'nother can of worms.) > [@](#): > > Do you believe that life begins at conception? I believe that a zygote is alive the same way my liver is alive. Remove my life support system, and the zygote or liver is not capable of life any longer. It has no intrinsic and self-sustaining life, yet its DNA is unmistakably human. I do not equate life with personhood. I think that viable life should be protected to the best of our ability without presenting that life with undue discomfort or stress growing up (that is, I think we should try to save very premature babies up to the point at which we’re likely to make them suffer, and I think viability should be the determining mark for the end of legal abortion.) > [@](#): > > If so, do you have any beliefs concerning the disposition of a dead human; religious, moral, or otherwise? I think that every dead human, regardless of age at time of death, should be disposed of in a manner which helps its closest survivors to feel better. For some, it’s a state funeral and cremation. For others, a non-casket burial under a tree. Some mothers and fathers need to grieve by having a memorial or funeral for their lost embryo, even if they have no body to bury. Others would prefer to have a toilet or hospital dispose of the body as medical waste and never look back. I think each individual family should be supported in their decision, and not forced to call it “death” if they can best deal with it as a delayed period. > [@rfgdxm](#): > > If legally life begins at conception, than legally terminating any life after conception logically is murder. I meant that in a legalistic sense. There are many kinds of “life” that are not persons. Murder refers to killing a person. Killing a dog is not murder. Cutting off my leg (or me cutting off your leg) is not murder. Yet that dog and our legs are “alive.” RvW made no comment on life that I recall, it was talking about _personhood_. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spontaneous-abortion/316722/16 "2005-08-15T01:14:32Z")
IANL. There is a difference and the law(s) may or may not take that into account. Spontaneous abortion is usually termed misscarriage. A theraputic abortion or induced abortion is deliberated.