# Sports/games strategies that radicalized existing ones **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 23, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706 "2015-01-23T19:40:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/41 "2015-01-29T16:06:47Z")
How about Ali’s use of rope-a-dope in boxing? Had anyone previously intentionally allowed an opponent to tire themselves out beating on them? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/42 "2015-01-29T16:48:53Z")
There’s that [high school coach who never punts and almost always onside kicks after scoring](http://grantland.com/features/grantland-channel-coach-never-punts/), 125-23-1 after 11 years and 3 state championships. It’s extremely unlikely, if not impossible, this strategy will ever become widespread, even at the high school level, despite Pulaski Academy’s success and the [math that backs it up](http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2013/11/15/5105958/fourth-down-pulaski-academy-kevin-kelley), but it’s definitely a radical idea. I’d not be surprised if there were a ton of football coaches who have considered this strategy at some point, but were all too cowardly to actually implement it. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/43 "2015-01-29T18:02:26Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > There’s that [high school coach who never punts and almost always onside kicks after scoring](http://grantland.com/features/grantland-channel-coach-never-punts/), 125-23-1 after 11 years and 3 state championships. > > It’s extremely unlikely, if not impossible, this strategy will ever become widespread, even at the high school level, despite Pulaski Academy’s success and the [math that backs it up](http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2013/11/15/5105958/fourth-down-pulaski-academy-kevin-kelley), but it’s definitely a radical idea. I’d not be surprised if there were a ton of football coaches who have considered this strategy at some point, but were all too cowardly to actually implement it. Didn’t he say as much? I though he said in an interview that he’d been visited by coaches from all levels, but that most admitted that they didn’t really want to open themselves up to the criticism that would be generated by such a dramatic change. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/44 "2015-01-29T21:03:12Z")
At the end of the 1969-70 NHL season, the tie-breaker between the Canadiens and Rangers for the last playoff spot in the Eastern division came down to total goals scored (not goal differential). The Rangers needed to win their final game and score five more goals that day than the Canadiens. They were leading 9-3 in the third period, but repeatedly pulled their goalie to run up the total of goals. They scored no goals with the extra attacker. Detroit scored two but that was irrelevant. In the evening game, the Canadiens didn’t need to win, but needed five goals total to surpass, NY. They pulled their goalie with 9 minutes left in the game while losing 5-2. They could not score, but Chicago scored 5 empty net goals. The Candiens should have played the entire game with no goalie. Maybe they could have lost 30 - 5 and made the playoffs. (That year was incidentally the last time no Canadian team was in the Stanley cup playoffs with Toronto turning in its usual poor performance, and Vancouver not yet in the league.) ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/45 "2015-01-30T08:37:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That is obviously not the case. The average NHL team scores about 2.75 goals per game, or a goal every 22 minutes or so, giving them less than a 5% chance of scoring a goal in the last minute of the game if they just continue playing even strength. > > Pulling the goalie roughly doubles the likelihood of a goal. Indeed, a lot of studies have been done on the strategy and it has been shown, time and time again, that > > 1. There is absolutely a justification for pulling the goalie when behind, and the customary use of that strategy is worth about 2-3 points in the standings, per year, to the average team that they would not get if they never pulled the goalie. > > 2. If anything, the evidence suggests NHL coaches are too conservative in terms of pulling the goalie, and could realize more gains in they did it a bit more. > > [Behindthenet Blog: What happens when you pull your goalie?](http://www.behindthenet.ca/blog/2007/12/what-happens-when-you-pull-your-goalie.html) > > A guy at SFU did a study and found there are situations where the goalie should be pulled with as many as six minutes left: > > [http://people.math.sfu.ca/~tim/papers/goalie.pdf](http://people.math.sfu.ca/~tim/papers/goalie.pdf) Thats amazing. I’ve watched a LOT of hockey, and I mean A LOT, and in my lifetime, Ive seen the pull the goalie strategy work TWICE, with the empty netters paying off 40-50 times. I can’t argue with hard stats, but my eyeball test says it just doesn’t work. The problem I have is its such an all or nothing deal----once the leading team gets the empty netter, its all over. With 6 minutes left THEN what do you do? If I was a coach, and forced by my sabermeticians to pull the goalie, Id make sure my third goalie was a “super goalie” . . … one who without the mask and pads could act as the third defender on the red line, but could quickly intercept empty net goals and get the puck back to there attackers, and fill in as goaltender in non-end game emergency situations. Maybe thats a compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/46 "2015-01-30T18:18:09Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I’d say [Bodyline](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodyline) would be a better example for cricket. Tasked with beating Australia at home Jardine, the English captain, instructed his bowlers to aim at leg stump and set fields to catch the batsmen’s mishits as they tried to parry the deliveries aimed straight at them. Oh, and there were no helmets or body padding in those days. > > You can see a bit of footage [here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rybPvBa3Oc) England won the series and even the greatest batsman of all time was restricted the new style, Bradman ‘only’ averaged 56.57, his worst [series average](http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/4188.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series)in his career. > > **After the West Indies used the same tactics in England** , the laws were changed to effectively prohibit this strategy, a testimony to both Bodyline’s effectiveness and it’s distastefulness. Bolding mine (I hope that’s allowed). Just to note that West Indies lost two Tests and drew one on that tour, so the Law wasn’t changed because the English started losing to Bodyline - they didn’t. It was more because, in the absence of TV coverage back then, most people in England hadn’t actually seen leg-theory at first hand, and thought the Australians were sore losers. Minds were changed once the English authorities saw it for themselves. When Constantine and Martindale bowled Bodyline, they enjoyed some success, but Jardine proved he was man enough to take his own medicine by scoring 127 off it. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/47 "2015-01-30T20:59:07Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > I’ve watched a LOT of hockey, and I mean A LOT, and in my lifetime, Ive seen the pull the goalie strategy work TWICE, with the empty netters paying off 40-50 times. Seriously? I’m about as casual a hockey fan as there is–most of my viewing is the Olympics or if the Blackhawks make the later rounds of the playoffs. Even I can think of three or four times when I’ve seen pulled-goalie goals. The Blackhawks won the 2013 Stanley Cup after a pulled-goalie goal in the final game. The US also had a memorable pulled-goalie goal against Canada in the 2010 Olympics. You must have uncommonly bad luck in the many games you watch. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/48 "2015-01-31T00:42:40Z")
You may recall a couple of years back that the Bruins pulled goalie Rask and scored twice in the last 31 seconds to tie game 7 in their Stanley Cup series with Toronto and went on to win it in overtime. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/49 "2019-01-21T14:13:06Z")
> [@squish7](#): > > But I’m a nerd and hence can only quote nerd examples! I don’t know of many of these situations in sports and games. Are there strategies of an individual or a team in hockey, basketball, chess, go, card games, poker, RPGs, video games, etc., etc. that were laughed at until they were vindicated by proof? Or just radicalized the game/sport in general? I do have a soccer coaching manual that lists a few new strategies that came out and defied previous practices… Thanks for any replies! One example of a strategy that is proven to work and yet is still laughed at and not used, is the granny throw in basketball. People who use it for free throws have an amazingly high success rate - but it’s embarrassing to do, and even players like Wilt Chamberlin, who benefited greatly while using it, eventually stopped [Why Rick And Canyon Barry Stay True To The 'Granny Shot' : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2017/05/28/530504774/why-rick-and-canyon-barry-stay-true-to-the-granny-shot) ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/50 "2019-01-21T22:23:04Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I’d say [Bodyline](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodyline) would be a better example for cricket. I first thought of the transition from underarm to overarm bowling, though according to [this](http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/437965.html) it took 60 years. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/51 "2019-01-21T22:47:03Z")
There’s also “monkey on a stick” jockeying [Science | AAAS](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2009/07/how-monkey-crouch-transformed-horseracing) ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/52 "2019-01-22T14:29:26Z")
So, anybody know if 5 years later, this innovation in Ultimate has taken hold? We have seen jump shooting teams (OK, maybe just the Warriors) win NBA titles since this thread started. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/53 "2019-01-22T15:16:29Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Seriously? I’m about as casual a hockey fan as there is–most of my viewing is the Olympics or if the Blackhawks make the later rounds of the playoffs. Even I can think of three or four times when I’ve seen pulled-goalie goals. The Blackhawks won the 2013 Stanley Cup after a pulled-goalie goal in the final game. The US also had a memorable pulled-goalie goal against Canada in the 2010 Olympics. And Canada did the same to the USA in the 2014 women’s gold medal game. I’ve seen pulled-goalie goals at least two dozen times. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706/54 "2019-01-22T15:59:59Z")
My question is this: has someone invented a superior zombie-killing technique that isn’t being used by most? 😛 Of all the sports, the one that seems most resistant to new thoughts is baseball. They still eventually happen, but in the process, oh do the tinkerers get reviled, and the conservative managers hang on to the established way of doing things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-games-strategies-that-radicalized-existing-ones/710706.md?page=2)