# Sports "Mount Rushmores" and (hopefully) the debates that follow **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 27, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243 "2016-11-27T23:40:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/41 "2016-11-28T21:47:31Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > NFL Kickers: > > George Blanda > Jan Stenerud > Ray Guy > Ray Wersching (a decent kicker, but the NFL’s all-time best tackling placekicker) I view “kicker” as “placekicker” – a separate position and skill set from “punter”, so I would have considered Guy for a punter list, if I were to make one. He’s the only pure punter in the HoF, and I think he was “the” punter in the NFL throughout his career. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/42 "2016-11-29T02:11:36Z")
New York athletes Mickey Mantle Jackie Robinson Willis Reed Tom Seaver These aren’t necessary the best athletes, but the ones most celebrated. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/43 "2016-11-29T02:50:28Z")
How about a reverse Mount Rushmore, maybe showing the backsides for the infamous entries: Controversial Barry Bonds (steroids) Jerry Rice (stick-um) Ray Lewis (murder) Ty Cobb (in general) Overrated busts Ryan Leaf Sam Bowie Hideki Irabu Tony Mandarich Had it all, lost it all (but their own fault) Dwight Gooden Darryl Strawberry Mike Tyson Len Bias Infamy (known for blunders) Joe Pisarcik Leon Lett Bill Buckner Scott Norwood Okay, Norwood might be unfair to call a blunder. Let’s put in Roy Riegels and/or Jim Marshall ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/44 "2016-11-29T06:09:18Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > My version would have Walter Payton, instead of Dickerson. Pro, I’m guessing? I played around with ProFootball Reference, and well, [things got weird.](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=1950&year_max=2016&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=0&pos=rb&c1stat=rush_yds&c1comp=gt&c1val=6500&c2stat=choose&c2comp=gt&c3stat=choose&c3comp=gt&c4stat=choose&c4comp=gt&c5comp=choose&c5gtlt=lt&c6mult=1.0&c6comp=choose&order_by=rush_yds_per_att&order_by_asc=Y&draft=0&draft_year_min=1936&draft_year_max=2016&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&draft_pick_in_round=pick_overall&conference=any&draft_pos=qb&draft_pos=rb&draft_pos=wr&draft_pos=te&draft_pos=e&draft_pos=t&draft_pos=g&draft_pos=c&draft_pos=ol&draft_pos=dt&draft_pos=de&draft_pos=dl&draft_pos=ilb&draft_pos=olb&draft_pos=lb&draft_pos=cb&draft_pos=s&draft_pos=db&draft_pos=k&draft_pos=p) I sorted for all RB over 6500 rushing yards. Then I started sorting by yds/attempt. Did you know that Jamaal Charles has over 7200 rushing yards, with a higher yds/attempt than Jim Brown? Me neither. I did this to try and build a case for either Faulk or LdT. Little did I know that AP has, already, 11,725 rushing yards, while doing it at a 4.86 yd/carry clip. In a pass-happy time. Curtis Martin has over 14,000 rushing yds, albeit at just over a 4 yd/carry pace. I don’t know what to think about pro football and the greatest of the greats anymore. Gun to head, mine’d be Brown, Emmitt, Sanders, Payton. But I really want to stick LdT in there somewhere. Football really could use some equivalent to ERA+ or OPS+ to help us better compare eras. I’m lost. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/45 "2016-11-29T06:27:44Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > …Tennis, Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, Laver (Sampras and Connors in reserve) Why Djokovic over Sampras? Sampras has more Slams and more years as ATP #1. Just curious. Let’s do cycling. Merckx (duh), but then who’s next? [Bernard Hinault](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Hinault) ends up on a lot of these list’s #2s. We’ll give [Fausto Copp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fausto_Coppi)i the Ted Williams/Bob Feller Memorial, “If Only World War 2 Hadn’t Showed Up” Award. Hard to decide between [Sean Kelly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Kelly_(cyclist)) and [Jacques Anquetil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Anquetil). Do you give more credit to the first guy to win the TdF five times, or do you give it to the guy who owned classics races in the 80s? Hard for me to say; I’m hardly an expert. Or do you give it to Indurain? I’m alright with putting Kelly up there, but it’s hardly a done deal. Maybe a great velodrome guy should be there instead? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/46 "2016-11-29T06:44:31Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I don’t know what to think about pro football and the greatest of the greats anymore. Gun to head, mine’d be Brown, Emmitt, Sanders, Payton. But I really want to stick LdT in there somewhere. > > Football really could use some equivalent to ERA+ or OPS+ to help us better compare eras. I’m lost. I think it’s very hard to compare players across eras – on the surface, the numbers are the numbers (yards, average per carry, TDs), but the game has changed dramatically since Jim Brown’s time. The HOF voters certainly have gotten flummoxed on how to evaluate offensive players now (and if you think RBs are difficult, try WRs!) At least for my part in this exercise, I tried to consider which players were the most iconic / important contributors at their position in their own era. I’m going to give some thought to WR and TE tomorrow, but I’m not yet sure that I’ll come up with sets of four that I find truly satisfactory. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/47 "2016-11-29T06:44:43Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Thats hard to argue. Maurice Richard v Mario Lemieux might be my only challenge. > > NHL Goaltenders Mt. Rushmore: > Terry Sawchuk > Patrick Roy > Martin Brodeur > Dan Dryden > > I know some might be arguing for Dominek Hasek, but only one Cup??? I think you mean _Ken_ Dryden. And no way, Mario has it hands down. The only reason his numbers aren’t higher is because his health was so poor. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/48 "2016-11-29T06:49:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think you mean _Ken_ Dryden. And no way, Mario has it hands down. The only reason his numbers aren’t higher is because his health was so poor. Not Richard’s fault. That said, I could take either. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/49 "2016-11-29T07:12:46Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > How about a reverse Mount Rushmore, maybe showing the backsides for the infamous entries: > > Controversial > Barry Bonds (steroids) > Jerry Rice (stick-um) > Ray Lewis (murder) > Ty Cobb (in general) > > Overrated busts > Ryan Leaf > Sam Bowie > Hideki Irabu > Tony Mandarich > > Had it all, lost it all (but their own fault) > Dwight Gooden > Darryl Strawberry > Mike Tyson > Len Bias > > Infamy (known for blunders) > Joe Pisarcik > Leon Lett > Bill Buckner > Scott Norwood > > Okay, Norwood might be unfair to call a blunder. Let’s put in Roy Riegels and/or Jim Marshall **NFL Killers:** OJ Simpson _ **allegedly** _\* Aaron Hernandez Ray Carruth Lawrence Phillips **Biggest Fanbase Betrayals** Baltimore Colts \>\>\>\>\>Indianapolis Cleveland Browns \>\>\>\>\>Baltimore Brooklyn Dodgers \>\>\>\>\>Los Angeles Seattle SuperSonics\>\>\>\>\>Oklahoma City **Buffoonish Sports Team Owners** Al Davis Bill Veeck Marge Schott Donald Sterling ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/50 "2016-11-29T08:38:47Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Why Djokovic over Sampras? Sampras has more Slams and more years as ATP #1. Sampras didn’t win all the majors and his opposition was much weaker and his game was less attractive to me. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/51 "2016-11-29T12:27:12Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Why Djokovic over Sampras? Sampras has more Slams and more years as ATP #1. > > Just curious. > > Let’s do cycling. Merckx (duh), but then who’s next? [Bernard Hinault](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Hinault) ends up on a lot of these list’s #2s. > We’ll give [Fausto Copp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fausto_Coppi)i the Ted Williams/Bob Feller Memorial, “If Only World War 2 Hadn’t Showed Up” Award. > > Hard to decide between [Sean Kelly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Kelly_(cyclist)) and [Jacques Anquetil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Anquetil). Do you give more credit to the first guy to win the TdF five times, or do you give it to the guy who owned classics races in the 80s? Hard for me to say; I’m hardly an expert. > > Or do you give it to Indurain? I’m alright with putting Kelly up there, but it’s hardly a done deal. Maybe a great velodrome guy should be there instead? Agree with **Novelty Bobble** on the tennis - for me it’s mainly to do with the opposition, I am a huge fan of Sampras and used to love watching him play but Djokovic’s achievements are all the greater for being up against 2 of the other top 4, plus Murray, plus a host of ‘second-tier’ opposition who in any other era would be racking up the majors themselves (e.g. Wawrinka, Nishikori, Raonic - and that’s just the current crop). On cycling, I think track and road need to be separated. I don’t know a lot about it, but if you’re going to combine them then surely Wiggins has to be in the conversation for winning multiple Olympic golds in the velodrome and winning the TdF? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/52 "2016-11-29T21:58:48Z")
> [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](#): > > I’m not in agreement with Affirmed or Seabiscuit. Sure they’re great, but they’re not better than Citation, Seattle Slew, Ruffian, or Kelso. I’d probably switch them with Citation and Kelso. Kelso isn’t as well known now, but he won horse of the year in 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, _and_ 1964. > > And so that I’m not just **naysaying** your list, here’s my picks for American Race Horses since 1990: > > Cigar > American Pharoah > Zenyatta > Wise Dan > > The top 3 were easy. The 4th was between Wise Dan, Holy Bull, Rachel Alexandra, Smarty Jones, California Chrome, Silver Charm ,and Skip Away. Bolding Mine. “neigh”-saying. I’ll see myself out. ---
**Author:** ![Moonchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Moonchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonchild)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/53 "2016-11-29T22:19:17Z")
**Celebrated Non-Champions Mt. Rushmore** Ernie Banks Dan Marino Charles Barkley Bernie Sanders 😃 I’m wont to include Karl Malone or Steve Nash, but neither belongs in the company of the other three. And I don’t know hockey. ---
**Author:** ![Moonchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Moonchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonchild)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/54 "2016-11-29T22:23:15Z")
**Broadcasters Mt. Rushmore** Vin Scully Chick Hearn Keith Jackson Al Michaels Note: Michaels was once Hearn’s sidekick for the Lakers, but Hearn reportedly wanted him out. Late add: Oof, no room for How-wuhd Co-sell. ---
**Author:** ![Moonchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Moonchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonchild)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/55 "2016-11-29T22:33:17Z")
Hmm. Curt Gowdy… Jim McKay… Ernie Harwell… Red Barber… That might have to be a crowded mountain. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/56 "2016-11-29T23:49:31Z")
> [@Moonchild](#): > > **Celebrated Non-Champions Mt. Rushmore** > Ernie Banks > Dan Marino > Charles Barkley > Bernie Sanders 😃 > > I’m wont to include Karl Malone or Steve Nash, but neither belongs in the company of the other three. And I don’t know hockey. I’d put in Fran Tarkenton or Jim Kelly. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/57 "2016-11-30T01:52:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think you’d be in a minority of 1 there, he was decent but no world beater in F1. I wouldn’t have him in my top 25 and he certainly wouldn’t get in ahead of his contemporary Jochen Rindt. Yeah, that’s why I would argue for it, but would be totally surprised if he ended up there. His F2 drive at the 'ring in 67, qualifying 3rd overall and running with the F1 cars until the car’s suspension broke proves there weren’t many faster than he was. However, he ended up working more in sports car racing. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The correct Mt. Rushmore for F1 would be Fangio, Schumacher, Clark, Senna. With Prost and Moss to be chipped onto the ends if there is room. I’d still say that anyone who’s willing to endanger their competitors over who wins the championship doesn’t deserve to be on the F1 Rushmore. Plus, the sport probably wouldn’t be the same without Stewart. I don’t know if you can say the same for the substitutes you provided. I can see arguing Brabham over Lauda. But on their worst days Schumacher, Senna and Prost were the most dangerous idiots on the track. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/58 "2016-11-30T17:33:08Z")
SPRINTERS Usain Bolt Michael Johnson Carl Lewis Jesse Owens AMERICAN SWIMMERS Duke Kahanamoku Michael Phelps Mark Spitz Johnny Weissmuller I made that “American Swimmers” because I really wanted to put Ian Thorpe in the top 4 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/59 "2016-11-30T17:38:17Z")
Baseball Managers Sparky Anderson Joe McCarthy John McGraw Earl Weaver ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243/60 "2016-11-30T17:40:27Z")
> [@Moonchild](#): > > **Celebrated Non-Champions Mt. Rushmore** > Ernie Banks > Dan Marino > Charles Barkley > Bernie Sanders 😃 > > I’m wont to include Karl Malone or Steve Nash, but neither belongs in the company of the other three. And I don’t know hockey. Peter Stastny or Marcel Dionne might be good hockey nominees [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-mount-rushmores-and-hopefully-the-debates-that-follow/773243.md?page=4)