# Sports that grade you based on what "should have happened" **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 9, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531 "2021-03-09T14:46:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/41 "2021-03-11T03:46:22Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Whether or not a receiver is in the area where the ball is thrown does matter in the NFL if you are determining whether there is an intentional grounding penalty against the quarterback. And you can’t have a defensive pass interference call if the ball is not catchable. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/42 "2021-03-11T03:54:59Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Whether or not a receiver is in the area where the ball is thrown does matter in the NFL if you are determining whether there is an intentional grounding penalty against the quarterback. Absolutely so – but what @Chronos seemed to be asking about (but maybe I’m mistaken) was whether a (legal) throw-away incomplete pass was treated any differently, statistics-wise, from a pass that was dropped by a receiver. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/43 "2021-03-11T05:07:37Z")
A ball thrown out of bounds (to avoid a sack) is counted as an incompletion, as is a spike to stop the clock. So, in both cases, counted the same as a ball thrown to a receiver that isn’t caught. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/44 "2021-03-11T11:45:37Z")
Yes, it was intentional grounding that I was referring to-- I just couldn’t remember the name. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/45 "2021-03-11T11:51:33Z")
And a Victory Formation kneel down is usually a -1 yard run. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/46 "2021-03-11T12:11:04Z")
-2 yards I believe. I once lost at fantasy football due to that fact. QB was just over a rushing threshold that got me points in that league. Either 2 or 3 kneel downs (can’t remember which) to end the game took him below it and I lost by 1 point. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/47 "2021-03-11T12:20:35Z")
Here’s the Super Bowl LV [play-by-play](https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=401220403). The last three plays are: > - > ### 1st & 10 at TB 20 > > (1:33 - 4th) T.Brady kneels to TB 19 for -1 yards. > > - > ### 2nd & 11 at TB 19 > > (0:50 - 4th) T.Brady kneels to TB 19 for no gain. > > - > ### 3rd & 11 at TB 19 > > (0:30 - 4th) T.Brady kneels to TB 18 for -1 yards. So it depends on the actual spot of the ball. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/48 "2021-03-11T12:41:28Z")
A football stat that I think would be meaningful is on an offensive holding call, the player who was held. A defensive linesman whose play “forces” the offensive linesman to hold him should be credited. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/49 "2021-03-11T12:58:24Z")
In cricket any [extras]([Extra (cricket) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_(cricket)#:~:text=In%20cricket%2C%20an%20extra%20(sometimes,credited%20to%20any%20individual%20batsman.&text=There%20are%20five%20types%20of,and%20Penalty%20run%20(pen).)) incurred by the fielding (by perhaps bowling wides or byes etc.) are counted as part of the batting team total but are _not_ part of the individual batsman’s statistics and _are_ part of the bowlers figures. Make of that what you will ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/50 "2021-03-11T14:27:01Z")
I’m by no means a cricket expert, but I thought LBW would be the salient cricket example. My understanding is the umpire must assess where the ball _would_ have gone had the leg not gotten in the way. And the result being “out” or “not out” being a huge deal. ---
**Author:** ![blabbermeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9a140/32.png) [@blabbermeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blabbermeister)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/51 "2021-03-11T15:11:58Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Par in golf is pretty much the definition of an expected outcome. Nice. I think even par “difficulty” varies from course to course and tournament to tournament, with the U.S. Open being notably harsh with the par settings. Since it’s every player for themself the commentators try to compare the players against each other, which I think truly represents what “should” happen in a game because the official par is subjective and doesn’t adjust for intangibles like weather. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/52 "2021-03-11T15:15:39Z")
I think there’s three categories. One is where the actual game outcome is changed to reflect what would have happened without a foul or violation. Examples are baseball runner interference, basketball goaltending, the hockey open-net foul, and races where a participant is DQ’d, thereby moving everyone else up. I suppose a league vacating wins because of a team’s violation also falls in here. Second is official stats that don’t change the game but give credit (or debit) to a player contrary to actual results. AFAIK, the only official stats that do this are baseball’s errors and ERA and to some degree basketball and hockey’s assists (where the scorer might decide to not award an assist if they thought the pass didn’t really help in scoring). Then there are tons of unofficial stats that try to do this – in fact, that’s one of the main goals of modern sports statistics, to try and separate actual outcomes from player skill. Some of these are based on official statistics (ERA+, etc), some on objective facts but not official or only quasi-official stats (expected goals, etc. which are objective but based on where the shot was taken, which isn’t a formal stat), and some that are subjective (e.g. a football analyst might go through a game tape and assign incomplete passes to ‘receiver drop, poor throw, intentional incomplete, or defensed’ and then come up with QB and receiver ratings based on that). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/53 "2021-03-11T16:59:05Z")
In poker, you can make a perfect play, and still get outdrawn. You can make a crappy play, and still win. I see that as somewhat analogous. The better player doesn’t win every hand, but they are still the better player. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/54 "2021-03-11T20:08:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In cricket any [extras]([Extra (cricket) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_(cricket)#:~:text=In%20cricket%2C%20an%20extra%20(sometimes,credited%20to%20any%20individual%20batsman.&text=There%20are%20five%20types%20of,and%20Penalty%20run%20(pen).)) incurred by the fielding (by perhaps bowling wides or byes etc.) are counted as part of the batting team total but are _not_ part of the individual batsman’s statistics and _are_ part of the bowlers figures. No. Wides and no balls count against the bowler’s figures. Byes and leg byes do not. It is correct that all sundries count to the batting total but not to individual batsmen. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/55 "2021-03-11T22:17:54Z")
True, to be honest I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for those not familiar with the game. I should’ve known better. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/56 "2021-03-14T19:08:42Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > I guess the concept of an own goal would be relevant for this. When Steve Smith famously caromed the puck into his own net in the NHL playoffs, the goal was credited to Perry Berezan, who had been the last opposing player to touch it. An equivalent soccer play would go down as an own goal, reflecting that no offensive player was directly responsible for it. And in basketball if you score in your own basket it is credited to the opposing player closest to the shooter. ---
**Author:** ![blabbermeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9a140/32.png) [@blabbermeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blabbermeister)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/57 "2021-03-14T19:17:53Z")
If your friend is on the other team I guess you could use this to bolster their stats. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/58 "2021-03-14T20:23:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I see that as somewhat analogous. The better player doesn’t win every hand, but they are still the better player. The game doesn’t grade you that way, though. Poker is an extreme example of a game that only grades you according to what actually did happen. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/59 "2021-03-15T02:21:23Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > nd to some degree basketball and hockey’s assists (where the scorer might decide to not award an assist if they thought the pass didn’t really help in scoring). I’m pretty sure that is not true of assists in hockey. The goal is awarded to the last offensive player to touch the puck and assists to the previous two offensive players to touch it (provided not controlled by the defense in between). Goalies can get a assist for making a save, if someone picks up the puck skates down the ice and scores. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2021, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531/60 "2021-03-15T03:19:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The game doesn’t grade you that way, though. Poker is an extreme example of a game that only grades you according to what actually did happen. Not according to amateurs ranting over the bad beat that happened to them. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sports-that-grade-you-based-on-what-should-have-happened/937531.md?page=4)