# Sportspeople who were / are the greatest ever **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 24, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674 "2004-07-24T11:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/41 "2004-07-26T19:21:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > For Phil, meanwhile, people will go to any length to deny him credit. Michael, Scottie won a grand total of zero championships without him. Shaq had none, and I don’t think the Heat will go all the way this year. Kobe had none, and the Lakers aren’t going anywhere this year either (although I can’t go as far as to predict he’ll never win another one). Oh well. I guess he can deal with getting undercredit - he’s got the millions of dollars and _nine NBA championships_ after all. Sorry, but this last year should have disspelled the notion that Phil is anything but a one trick pony. All he knows is the triangle - and he doesn’t even know that very well. Tex Winter does all the teaching. He doesn’t know how to alter his lineup to exploit his opponents weaknesses and if the triangle doesn’t work, he doesn’t have the ability to go outside his system and come up with an alternative. The triangle is a great system that has worked well with the personnel he’s had, but when the personnel is better suited to a different style of offense, he can’t adjust. For my money, Larry Brown is a better coach. Hell, the man took the Clippers to the playoffs. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/42 "2004-07-26T20:55:41Z")
**(American) Football:** You don’t have to go by statistics, but if you do, the greatest player ever is unquestionably **Jerry Rice**. The only comparable players at other positions (i.e., the players who hold the most important career records) are Dan Marino (QB) and Emmit Smith (RB). Let’s see how far beyond the pack each is. Passing: Completions: Marino – 4,967 (20.5% greater than #2 on the list) Elway – 4,123 Yards: Marino – 61,361 (+19.2%) Elway – 51,475 TDs: Marino – 420 (+21.4%) Favre – 346 Rushing: Yards: Smith – 17, 418 (+4.1%) Payton – 16726 TDs: Smith – 155 (+17.9%) Marcus Allen – 123 Notice that Marino and Smith outdid their closest competitors by, at best, about 20%. Now look at how Jerry Rice stacks up against other receivers. Receiving: Receptions: Rice – 1,519 **(+38%)** Chris Carter – 1,101 TDs: Rice – 194 **(+49%)** Carter – 130 Yards: Rice – 22,466 **(+52.5%)!** Tim Brown – 14,734 Rice is also the all-time leader in total TDs by 23.5% (205 to 166 for Emmit Smith). Also note that Jerry Rice is still productive at age 41, so his margins will only increase for the forseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/43 "2004-07-27T01:07:00Z")
> [@Trillionaire](#): > > OP here. I didn’t include baseball mainly because I know very little about it. I do however remember reading an article by someone who concluded that Mickey Mantle was the greatest ever. If there are experts disagreeing then by definition that person is not unquestionably the greatest ever. I have never heard of a reputable expert who would say Mantle was greater than Ruth. Ruth was the greatest beyond any doubt or question. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/44 "2004-07-27T10:03:29Z")
Walter Lindrum at Billiards? And Fischer for chess must be one of the most contentious- what about Alekhine or Capablanca? ---
**Author:** ![Beauty\_Personified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@Beauty\_Personified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beauty_Personified)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/45 "2004-07-27T10:05:39Z")
Skateboarding - Tony Hawk It’s always interesting to ask this question to people who don’t really follow sports. The names they would come up with can be telling. Sometimes an athlete’s career and life off the field has a great impact on their notoriety, but I’d have to say that most of the names a relatively uninformed bystander would come up with are warranted by the fact that those athletes made headlines for years because of their skill. That said, I’m only really familiar with hockey. IMO, Wayne Gretzky is the greatest player ever. Not for the great numbers he put up, however; but for how he affected the play of everyone else on the teams he played for. There have been a number of players who played one season on his wing, and put up numbers they never came close to achieving again. Despite never playing organized hockey, I could score at least 20 goals a season playing on a line with Gretzky in his prime. Now, what about professional wrestling? 🙂 I suspect the average uninformed bystander would mention Hulk Hogan when asked to name a great wrestler. The Rock would get a good number of votes from younger folk. However, for long-time fans and newer fanatics, Hogan would only be considered great when it comes to charisma and helping make wrestling a more mainstream product. As an actual wrestler, he was not very good. Of course, being how professional wrestling is a amalgam of athletic skill, entertainment and storytelling, there are many different categories that different wrestlers past and present would fall into with regards to greatness. Just trying to define “greatest” as being the best “all-around” pro wrestler would have people up in arms. Charisma, mic work, athletism, look - are they all of equal importance? Hogan made up for his shortcomings athletically with his showmanship. Chris Benoit makes up for low charisma with amazing wrestling skill. And then there’s the fact that pro wrestling today is a lot different than pro wrestling even ten years ago, and pro wrestling then was a lot different than pro wrestling ten years before that. Forget about how different the sport was before Hogan came along, or even how different the sport was before Gorgeous George stepped into the ring. Anyhoo… ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/46 "2004-07-27T10:43:12Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > Sumo: Asashoryu if he can keep it up. Otherwise, Taiho and Chiyonofuji. As much as I like the feisty Mongol’s style, there’s no freekin’ way Asashoryu is anywhere near the top of all time. Frankly, the only reason he’s having his winning streak is because the opposition is so weak. Put Asashoryu against Takanohana or Akebono at their best (to pick recent examples) and he might not have made it to Yokozuna so soon. I can’t imagine him getting anywhere near his current results in the mid 80s, either, with Chiyonofuji and Kitanoumi around. Since we’re talking _of all time_, however, the answer for sumo is certainly **Raiden** with his 254-10 lifetime record. It’s hard to gauge just how good an athlete of 200 years ago really was, but in terms of numbers and simply ruling over his opponents, Raiden was the man. ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/47 "2004-07-27T11:32:04Z")
> [@igloorex](#): > > I guess we’ll find out tomorrow whether to add Lance Armstrong to the list. > > With track and swimming it’s kind of hard to say. Mark Spitz was dominant in swimming in his day, but I don’t think his times would compare to world class swimmers today. Michael Phelps may well dethrone him anyway. Maybe but not very likely. This is one of my peeves. See [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5106964&postcount=7). On topic, Grant Hackett hasn’t been beaten over 1500m freestyle since 1997. That’s very dominant. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/48 "2004-07-27T15:35:23Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I would agree that Orr _could have_ given Gretzky a run for his money had his career continued. But in fact, it didn’t. Gretzky simple put up numbers unheard of since. And yes, it’s true that the game in general was higher scoring then, that is somewhat offset by the shorter seasons that were played. Not counting the strike shortened season of 94-95 the majority of seasons that Gretzky played were 80 game seasons. 92-92 was an 84 game season and the league has had an 82 game schedule since 95-96. Orr started in 66-67 when there was a 70 game schedule. The next season it was 74 games and the year after that it was 76 games. In 70-71 the league went to a 78 game season and to the 80 game season in 74-75. When both Orr and Gretzky were putting up their insane monster numbers the difference in the length of the season was 2 games. I don’t think that the 50 in 39 record will ever be touched. 50 in 50 may now be too difficult to achieve again as well. Oh, and **Ellis Dee** what is with the please comment about Lemieux? A very strong case could be made for him. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/49 "2004-07-27T16:43:32Z")
> [@mike1dog](#): > > In auto racing, It is very hard to compare drivers from the past to current drivers because the vehicles are so different. There’s also the fact that rallying, for example is a totally different sport from Formula one, and currently you almost never see a driver from one area of motorsports make a change to another kind successfully. Don’t know much abut auto racing, but I do know a bit about motorcycle racing. Back in the day, a Grand National champion had to win on dirt _and_ in road racing to take the championship. Entirely different technique on entirely different bikes. And that’s why Kenny Roberts is probably the greatest motorcycle racer there ever was. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/50 "2004-07-27T17:30:18Z")
Sport judo: Yasuhiro Yamashita. Powerlifting: Mike Bridges Tennis: Bill Tilden. Boxing (by division): Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde Bantamweight: Terry McGovern Featherweight: Salvador Sanchez Lightweight: Roberto Duran Welterweight: Sugar Ray Robinson Middleweight: Carlos Monzon Lightheavyweight: Archie Moore Heavyweight: Joe Louis Good players can be compared against each other, but the greats cannot. They are part of destiny. Outside their time and their context, they aren’t the same. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/51 "2004-07-28T01:49:19Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Oh, and **Ellis Dee** what is with the please comment about Lemieux? A very strong case could be made for him. Nothing personal against Mario. Returning from Hodgkins (sp?) disease is no small feat, and worthy of the highest respect. I give Lemieux all the credit in the world. That guy is one of the all-time greats. However, the complete dominance of Gretzky is so completely vast and untouchable, it is almost as if he were a professional player in a world of pop warner. So much better for so much longer than anyone ever has been or ever could hope to be. Wayne Gretzky is, quite simply, The Great One, and his mark on the game will not only never be touched, but no player will _ever_ even approach the same league, much less get a whiff of the rarified air he lived in every game. If all of Gretzky’s numbers were just in the top 3 of all time, you could still make an argument that he was the greatest ever for a variety of reasons. One poster mentioned the great impact he had on his teammates. A friend of mine appreciates his unselfish love of the sport in his efforts to bring the NHL to Los Angeles. But returning from cancer rates up there, to name just one of the possible contenders in that case. In this hypothetical, it would be a great barroom debate. However, the numbers _alone_ are so overwhelming as to crush any doubt. One poster discussed Jerry Rice’s % dominance over 2nd place in alltime records being in the 40s, over double the margin of other guys, who only owned their records by % in the 20s. Let’s look at Gretzky and #2: ## Goals The Great One: 894 Second Place: 801 (Gordie Howe) Margin: 11% ## Assists The Great One: 1963 Second Place: 1247 (Ron Francis; Gordie Howe had “only” 1049) Margin: 57% ## Points The Great One: 2830 Second Place: 1869 (Mark Messier) Margin: 51% Third Place: 1850 (Gordie Howe) You might notice, at this point, that Gretzky has more assists, by a decent margin, than any other player has points. Adding in the fact that he also holds the record, by a decent margin, for goals, it becomes surreal. Some people might point out that Lemieux had higher per game averages. These are the same people who will tend to start sentences with “ **if** he had played as long…” and “ **if** he never got cancer”. That’s the whole point. Nobody needs a single **if** to make the case for Gretzky. One of the many great aspects of Gretzky’s career was the sheer length of his greatness. (The general “you”) greatly devalue that by assuming Mario (or anybody else) could have maintained his averages for as many years. You may as well argue that Ricky Williams was clearly the greatest ever, because if you multiply his average season total by the number of seasons Emmitt Smith played, he crushes Emmitt. That may be true, but that’s an insult. There is a reason we hold endurance streaks (ala Brett Favre and Cal Ripken Jr.) in such high regard. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/52 "2004-07-28T12:21:29Z")
A small point - mainly for the Americans. Look chaps, I don’t want to break it to you too badly - but if a game doesn’t have a World Cup (with other nations who stand a chance) not just a “World Series” them it’s just that a game - a passtime; a bagatelle. Sorry - but that’s the truth. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/53 "2004-07-28T12:51:27Z")
I started a thread way back when on this very topic… [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=134678&highlight=sport). ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/54 "2004-07-28T12:55:31Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Look chaps, I don’t want to break it to you too badly - but if a game doesn’t have a World Cup (with other nations who stand a chance) not just a “World Series” them it’s just that a game - a passtime; a bagatelle. :rolleyes: One wonders if Toronto, Canada, feels surprised that a non-US team doesn’t have a chance at winning. Hate to break it to you Euro types, but if a large part of the game involves grown men writhing on the ground pretending to be hurt, it’s really just a game. Mostly for little pansy-ass whiners. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/55 "2004-07-28T13:06:53Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Look chaps, I don’t want to break it to you too badly - but if a game doesn’t have a World Cup (with other nations who stand a chance) not just a “World Series” them it’s just that a game - a passtime; a bagatelle. WTF? Are you talking about baseball? The sport that’s hugely popular throughout the Caribbean and Mexico? The #1 sport in Japan? Popular in Taiwan and Korea? The Philippines too. The names Larry Walker, Ferguson Jenkins, Jose Canseco, Juan Marichal, Sammy Sosa, Ichiro Suzuki, Sadaharu Oh, Andres Galarraga, Roberto Clemente or Felipe Alou probably don’t ring a bell, do they? (And that’s just off the top of my head.) ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/56 "2004-07-28T13:13:02Z")
I think he’s talking about american football and ice hockey in particular. I could be wrong though - I don’t know whether these two have a ‘World Series’ or not. Neurotik, which sport are you whining about? Not pro wrestling, I’m sure 😛 ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/57 "2004-07-28T13:26:25Z")
Ice Hockey has a world championship but it’s a bit overshadowed by the quest for the holy grail that is THE STANLEY CUP _cue Molson Hockey Night in Canada music_ It’s most definitely an international sport, though obviously its popularity is mostly concentrated in northern countries. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/58 "2004-07-28T13:31:10Z")
I didn’t know ice hockey was played outside of Canada and the US. Which other countries play it then? And why is the Stanley Cup bigger than the world championship? Do all ice hockey playing countries play for the Stanley Cup? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/59 "2004-07-28T13:43:24Z")
> [@gouda](#): > > I didn’t know ice hockey was played outside of Canada and the US. Which other countries play it then? And why is the Stanley Cup bigger than the world championship? Do all ice hockey playing countries play for the Stanley Cup? Most of northern and eastern Europe. The Swedes, Finns, Norwegians, Russians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Sloveniansand Czechs, plus many others, have excellent teams. The Stanley Cup is the NHL Championship trophey. Since the NHL is the most popular hockey league, it also pays the most money. That’s why the best players in the world come to the NHL teams. But in recent years those players have come from all over the world, rather than just the US and Canada. It’s professional teams, just like the Premier League in soccer/football. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674/60 "2004-07-28T13:50:26Z")
Canada, the U.S., Russia and the former soviet states, Sweden, Czech Republic, and Finland among others are very strong and produce many good players. In the 1998 Olympics, when pro players were allowed to play, the Czech Republic won the gold. The biggest league, the NHL, however has teams in the U.S. and Canada and is where pretty much all the top players play. The makeup of the teams is very international, though. The Stanley Cup is awarded every year. It’s special in that whereas several sports have long traditions, and strong cultures tied to them, ice hockey has an actual object that becomes the focus of the fans’ “worship”. I don’t think there’s an equivalent in any major sport I’m aware of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sportspeople-who-were-are-the-greatest-ever/256674.md?page=4)