# Spot the Actual Hatred Challenge **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2022, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009 "2022-09-22T02:05:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/1 "2022-09-22T02:05:05Z")
A couple of days ago, in the Canadian shop teacher thread, this statement of mine about what the basic beliefs common to “TERFS” are was characterised as “lying”. > [@Shop class no no’s Shorts, long hair and giant prosthetic boobs?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shop-class-no-no-s-shorts-long-hair-and-giant-prosthetic-boobs/971773/25): > > By the way, the full set of TERF beliefs is basically “Sex is more important than gender. Any of the (very small set of) cases where men and women should be separated out from each other, should be done by sex. Also, you can’t change sex with cosmetic surgery (or drugs)” > > That’s pretty much it. No concentration camps for trans people. No caring who, or whatever sex, wears a dress or makeup. Just prioritising sex over gender. Does that really seem “batshit”? OK. Here’s a [link](https://wesleyyang.substack.com/p/a-mother-intent-on-protecting-her) to an actual gender critical campaigner, out with her “Mom: human female who protects her kids…” sign. She’s pretty typical of the TERFS I’ve been meeting out at protests and online … and by “TERF” I mean “person who’s going to get yelled at and called a TERF” Feel free to find some hatred, bigotry or “policing of gender expression” there because I don’t see it. I’m pretty comfortable being on the same political side as this woman. Bonus - I don’t have to be on the side that thinks it’s fine to [beat up a 74-year-old gay man](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/elderly-gay-activist-assaulted-by-trans-protesters-at-vermont-pride-parade/) for asserting that sexual attraction is based on sex. Which is, frankly, something anyone old enough to have had a sexual relationship ought to have figured out by now. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/2 "2022-09-22T02:12:18Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Here’s a [link](https://wesleyyang.substack.com/p/a-mother-intent-on-protecting-her) to an actual gender critical campaigner, out with her “Mom: human female who protects her kids…” sign. She’s pretty typical of the TERFS I’ve been meeting out at protests and online … and by “TERF” I mean “person who’s going to get yelled at and called a TERF” The article didn’t describe her as a TERF. Did I miss it? Is it your position that she is a TERF? Your definition of the “full set of TERF beliefs” seems to be missing the ‘radical feminist’ half, IMO. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/3 "2022-09-22T02:30:23Z")
“Terf” hasn’t meant “trans exclusionary radical feminist” for some time now. Nowadays, it just means, “someone on the left who opposes trans rights.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/4 "2022-09-22T02:37:57Z")
I’ll take your word for it. The woman interviewed in the article does not explicitly advocate any restrictions on trans rights (there’s a transcript at the bottom of the page); however, the article leaves the elephant in the room unanswered - why are they protesting in front of a children’s hospital? The interviewer did not ask if she opposed other people’s right obtain any particular medical procedures, and really this points to incompetence on the interviewer’s part as that is presumably the _reason d’etre_ for the event. The interviewee’s answer to _that_ line of questioning would probably be characterized as bigoted or hateful, not the pushover questions and answers actually given. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/5 "2022-09-22T02:38:08Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Bonus - I don’t have to be on the side that thinks it’s fine to [beat up a 74-year-old gay man](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/elderly-gay-activist-assaulted-by-trans-protesters-at-vermont-pride-parade/) for asserting that sexual attraction is based on sex [No, you get to be in the group that thinks its fine to beat up a trans man for using the women’s bathroom.](https://www.advocate.com/news/2022/7/12/trans-man-brutally-assaulted-using-womens-restroom-campground) ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/6 "2022-09-22T03:05:25Z")
I actually don’t think the gender-critical community as a whole has come out in favour of those thugs. But feel free to look for some examples. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/7 "2022-09-22T03:13:35Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I actually don’t think the gender-critical community as a whole has come out in favour of those thugs. Nor have trans rights advocates as a whole supported beating up that guy in Vermont, but that didn’t stop you from insinuating a connection, did it? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/8 "2022-09-22T03:15:06Z")
No way I’m visiting that thread. So can the OP explain to me what their definitions of sex and gender are in this context? I tend to treat the two terms as being synonymous when used like this but the OP is apparently seeing some significant distinction between them. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/9 "2022-09-22T03:34:20Z")
Sex is the unchangeable biological reality of what our bodies are like. Gender is the archetypes and stereotypes that are either: - typically considered to belong to the two groups on the basis of sex (“girls like barbies, boys like football”) or - may possibly actually different **on average** between the two sexes (“girls are more empathetic, boys are more assertive”) The second point is speculative as to what extent those differences actually exist, and what they might be based on. Also, the words “on average” are very important there. An attempt to divide people into men/women based on **gender** rather than sex basically devolves into entrenchment of stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/10 "2022-09-22T03:35:35Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > An attempt to divide people into men/women based on **gender** rather than sex basically devolves into entrenchment of stereotypes. Or vice versa. Who can say? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/11 "2022-09-22T03:40:23Z")
Well, for instance, I think [this mother’s](https://pitt.substack.com/p/true-believer) story of thinking her child trans - apparently incorrectly according to her now - is a case of entrenching stereotypes. She thought her son was trans because he wasn’t conforming to boy stereotypes. She decided she was wrong when her second son started to refer to himself as “she” despite **actually** conforming to boy stereotypes ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/12 "2022-09-22T03:42:18Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > An attempt to divide people into men/women based on **gender** rather than sex basically devolves into entrenchment of stereotypes. One of the fundamental idiocies of terf rhetoric is the idea that trans people represent some sort of increased acceptance of gendered stereotypes, which is immediately recognizable nonsense to anyone who’s met at least two trans people. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/13 "2022-09-22T03:43:45Z")
And I see that while I was posting that, you were already destroying your own argument. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/14 "2022-09-22T04:10:59Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Sex is the unchangeable biological reality of what our bodies are like. What do you feel determines a person’s sex? Is it their genitals? Because you refer to sex as being unchangeable. And genitals can be changed surgically. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/15 "2022-09-22T05:44:53Z")
Things that sex makes a difference to are basically the reproductive system and body structure. Modern medicine can’t actually make you a reproductive organ of the other sex, any more than it can make a kidney. It can make something that vaguely, visually looks the same. In any case, if you don’t want to take part in activities differentiated by sex, you don’t have to. You can live a life in completely co-ed spaces if you like. But a person’s perceived gender is not objectively measurable in _any_ way, so people (mostly women) who want to partake in single-sex spaces where that has traditionally been deemed necessary - sports, unclothed spaces, domestic violence support are the primary ones - should not be coerced into exchanging them for same-gender spaces. They don’t do the job. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/16 "2022-09-22T05:50:54Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > any more than it can make a kidney. I’ll just leave this for your education… [https://www.genengnews.com/news/3d-printed-kidneys-included-in-collplant-and-united-therapeutics-expanded-collaboration/](https://www.genengnews.com/news/3d-printed-kidneys-included-in-collplant-and-united-therapeutics-expanded-collaboration/) No, as yet I haven’t seen proposals to print genitals of any kind, but if the need or demand was there I’m sure it could be done. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/17 "2022-09-22T09:52:51Z")
This is like finding the racism in an “all lives matter” sign or an “it’s OK to be white” shirt. Will you ever explain why you want to normalize bearded people using women’s restrooms? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/18 "2022-09-22T10:06:01Z")
Amusing and not surprising that @aspidistra totally ignores your pointing out their hypocrisy here… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/19 "2022-09-22T12:25:58Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Feel free to find some hatred, bigotry or “policing of gender expression” there because I don’t see it. How about the mom consistently misgendering her trans-son? I’m pretty fucking sure that lady is policing her child’s gender expression, by absolutely disregarding the fact that her child came out to her as a boy, and she is instead describing her child as a girl who likes short hair. This trans hating mom thinks that all the other adults and people in her son’s life are in the wrong for not telling her son that maybe he’s just gay, or will outgrow it in a few years, you know, the trans hating bullshit that his parents are telling him. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009/20 "2022-09-22T12:48:36Z")
So, from that article, would you agree that the following statements are true: “We are told by leading politicians that if we do not dose children with an off-label cancer drug once used to chemically castrate sex offenders that we are harming them.” " We are told by leading politicians, including the President of the United States of America, that treating the underlying comorbidities that virtually always accompany trans identification in young people — depression, anxiety, anorexia, cutting, sexual trauma from abuse — through psychotherapy, rather than immediately affirming them in their new gender identity is a form of “conversion therapy” that must be banned." Do you agree that “risky, experimental treatments” were being “pushed on” that woman’s daughter? Do you agree with her that “people have to tell the biological truth.”, and if so, what is that biological truth that “they” presumably aren’t telling? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spot-the-actual-hatred-challenge/972009.md?page=2)