# Spy John Walker croaked **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 29, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903 "2014-08-29T19:16:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/21 "2014-08-30T20:27:02Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > It’s all a very weird game full of hypocrisy, isn’t it? I mean, on the one hand, I fully understand why people caught spying must be punished, and punished severely, but OTOH, everyone spies. _Everyone_. A good argument could be made that a significant portion of all the spying in the world is being done by us (and nearly all the rest of it against us). There’s certainly an interesting ethical and moral dynamic involved, that’s for sure. Every country spies, not everyone sells out their fellow countrymen for money. Big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/22 "2014-08-31T01:08:35Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What’s a boomer and what’s a bastion? A boomer is a submarine that launches missiles. Not sure what a bastion is in this case. In normal military talk, it’s a defensive outpost used to shoot back at an enemy. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/23 "2014-08-31T01:12:13Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > The claim in the article that he was slated to be paroled within the year makes it a little easier. Actually, as far as I can tell, he wasn’t slated to be paroled in 2015. Instead, 2015 would have been the first year he was eligible for parole. Being eligible for parole doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting out of prison. For example, Charles Manson has been eligible since 1978. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/24 "2014-08-31T01:58:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Apparently you can’t imagine how serious everyone thought it was. It was so serious, we almost blew up the planet. We almost blew up the planet because both sides were more interested in defaming the other side rather than building itself up. Again, its a circular argument. Spying makes us paranoid and the paranoia leads to more spying. If one side stopped spying and put its efforts elsewhere, we wouldn’t butt heads as much as we did > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Did you know that the world’s economy depends upon computers? Did you know that there are government hackers out there who are developing means to shut computers down? Spying helps us keep tabs on those people, and to develop countermeasures. We already know there are other people trying to hack into our computers, it doesn’t take a spy to tell us that. If you want to protect government computers, build ones that are too powerful with code that doesn’t have backdoors conveniently installed in them like the NSA demands. One guy in a basement and bring down corporate networks these days, spying doesn’t do anything to prevent that. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > If we ignored Li’l Kim, do you think he’ll stop his mischief? Or, as has happened historically with North Korea, do you think that he will perform more outrageous acts to get our attention? Ignoring him or not has little to do with spying. Our purposeful reactions to his tantrums keep him in line. What has our spying done? Have we learned anything about North Korea that’s lead to its dissolution in the 60 years its been around? Or are we spying just for the sake of spying? > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > There are more threats than ‘small time terrorists’. Do you think the 9/11 attacks were ‘small time’? They gave us two stupid, expensive, unfunded wars, kept a president in office whose administration destroyed the American economy and severely harmed the world economy, caused laws to be passed that eroded our civil rights, resulted in ‘no-fly’ lists that cannot be challenged (so much for the 6th Amendment)… Shall I go on? And all this was from those ‘small time terrorists’. Think what would happen if an enemy state decided to have a go at us, and we didn’t have any warning because we decided to play nice and stop spying. Spying did not stop 9/11. And I consider intelligence operations different from spying. We did not penetrate Osama’s inner circle or set up a mole amongst the 19 hijackers. Its weird that you decry the objectively terrible policies of the Bush administration and its attacks on our civil rights but you are in support of spying. You think more and better spying would prevent that and not feed the NSA and turn it into an even bigger civil rights opponent? > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > China may not want to attack the United States (they’re smart enough to know that they depend on us), but they’d love to invade Taiwan. North Korea can’t reach us. But they can reach South Korea. ISIS is no match for the U.S. militarily, but they could easily infiltrate the country. Isolationism is a bad idea. A country can’t bury its head in the sand and pretend there isn’t a lion about to pounce. Nobody’s talking about isolation. I’m talking about the specific human spying operations we have such as the one this guy Walker was accused of. He sold information that made it easier to track our naval operations. Let’s turn that around and say some Soviet spy sold us the information so we can better track Russian subs. So…now what? Are we going to blow them up? Does it matter if we know where their subs are even? Let’s say that somebody in the USSR gave us all of their technology in the middle of the Cold War. Now what? Are we going to strike Russia with nukes and blow them up? Or is this just information for the sake of information? What good does it do us to know their stealth technology? What do you think they did with the information Walker sold them? Do you think they blew up some US subs because they can suddenly track them? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/25 "2014-08-31T02:26:58Z")
That bastard had a nice airplane when he got caught. A Grumman Cheeta IIRC. Glad he is never getting out, at least alive. ---
**Author:** ![Peanuthead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peanuthead/32/360_2.png) [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/26 "2014-08-31T04:39:05Z")
The guy was a scumbag and a traitor. He dragged his friend, his brother and his own son into his scheme. And while he is (was) up for parole the friend and brother each received multiple life sentences because he testified against them. That’s loyalty for ya, ain’t it? His brother died in prison and the kid was paroled I believe in 2000. For an outstanding account of Walker’s life and treasonous behavior read Howard Blum’s [I Pledge Allegiance.](http://www.amazon.com/Pledge-Allegiance-Walkers-American-Family/dp/0671626140/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409457553&sr=1-9&keywords=i+pledge+allegiance) Peanuthead - US Navy 1968-1972 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/27 "2014-08-31T05:10:26Z")
Was this the one they made a movie about, a few years ago? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/28 "2014-08-31T06:47:19Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Yog-Gobsmacked is the only adequate word to describe my reaction to your post. I’m with you. I think it was a whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/29 "2014-08-31T06:51:16Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > Why was he never traded in a spy swap? Wasn’t that what we usually did with the USSR? He wasn’t a real spy, IIRC. He was a traitor/spy. The traitor part puts the spin on it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/30 "2014-08-31T14:03:52Z")
> [@Peanuthead](#): > > Peanuthead - US Navy 1968-1972 Thank you for your service. As for Walker - may God have mercy on his soul, and would that the meeting had been arranged years ago. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/31 "2014-08-31T15:41:02Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Was this the one they made a movie about, a few years ago? Quite a few years ago. _Family of Spies_ was made in 1990. ---
**Author:** ![Number](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/number/32/242_2.png) [@Number](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Number)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/32 "2014-08-31T21:59:11Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Was this the one they made a movie about, a few years ago? You might be thinking about [Robert Hanssen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen), subject of the 2007 film _[Breach](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401997)_. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/33 "2014-08-31T22:07:32Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > We almost blew up the planet because both sides were more interested in defaming the other side rather than building itself up. Again, its a circular argument. Spying makes us paranoid and the paranoia leads to more spying. If one side stopped spying and put its efforts elsewhere, we wouldn’t butt heads as much as we did Obviously our experiences and world-view are quite different. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/34 "2014-09-01T00:26:27Z")
> [@Number](#): > > You might be thinking about [Robert Hanssen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen), subject of the 2007 film _[Breach](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401997)_. Yes, that’s it - thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/35 "2014-09-01T03:38:11Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What’s a boomer and what’s a bastion? Boomer is a nickname for the Missile subs, that launch the SLBM’s. In American terms, it would be one leg of the triad force. The other two, would be the Bombers like the B-52’s and the airforce missiles, like the Minuteman ICBM. As for the bastion, this might help a bit more. [The Wiki on the subject](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastion_%28naval%29) So if I have it correct, the Soviets ignored our spying bird satellites until being told about the secondary uploading? What happened after that? Did they destroy them? No, destroying the sats would have been an act of war. But they don’t maneuver alot, so you can predict what time they are going to fly over. Any stuff that you want to not be noticed, you simply dont do it in that time frame. Which is why spy planes like the U2 and the SR-71 were so useful, they dropped in at inconvient times for the soviets. As an aside, the Indians did something similar in the 90’s and got Clinton really pissed at them. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Boats that were built using US technology, is the implication? [Walker class boats](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/971.htm) Not that he was entirely to blame, the japanese and some european countries shared some of the blame, with technology that allowed the propellers to be more refined, thus quieter. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I can imagine how serious everyone thought it was, but ultimately, what actual harms did each side suffer due to the paranoia and what harms came from the actual foreign enemy? Its not enough to me for you to say the Soviets were bad and they almost harmed us. If all they did was threaten us, I’d say it was a pretty peaceful time. Late seventies, early 80’s, the soviets definitely had the upper hand. Had it come to a war in europe, its likely that several european governments would have rolled over, More than one European leader, was under some unofficial scrutiny. Tanks, they had more, Artillery, they had more, and in both cases, better equipment. Aircraft, it was sort of a rolling parity depending on what was in country at the time. Troops, they had more, and were the home team, we would have had to hope we could contain them long enough for the troops to get to the pre positioned stuff, and hope they held on long enough until further reinforcements started rolling in. Then Reagan came to power, and had a mission of cut off, containment, and rollback. You may have heard of an exercise called Able Archer. That and the Soviets went through about 3 premiers in as many years, before settling on gorby. Reagan was almost capped, the pope was almost capped, and we were effectively jousting with the Iranians, Libyans, and Syrians. Grenada was outright invaded. I think that a number of people in other parts of the world that remember, might not think peace was an accurate term. Poland alone, could have kicked off WW3, had someone other than Gorby been in charge. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Or are you guys afraid that if we stopped spying, we wouldn’t be powerful anymore? That our whole defense industry is supported by hidden microphones in fake statuettes and Google image satellite pictures? That if we didn’t know what Kim Jong Un is up to every second, he could show up at the White House and take it over? War is not meant to be fair, if it is, someone is not doing his job. Trust but verify. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/36 "2014-09-01T03:52:45Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Does it matter if we know where their subs are even? Let’s say that somebody in the USSR gave us all of their technology in the middle of the Cold War. Now what? Are we going to strike Russia with nukes and blow them up? Blow them up, don’t think that would happen. But lets say as a hypothetical that Russia invades a country, for what ever policy reasons that Russia comes up with. Call that hypothetical country, Ukraine, for the sake of argument. We pooh poohed them with harsh language, did all the economic sanction thing, and finally the US President calls out the Russian guy for the diplomatic ice bucket challenge. Lines have been drawn, and the Russians give us the raspberry and start pointing ominously at their nukes and seriously suggest that sex and travel is in The US president near future. So we did the huggy feely thing, and its not working, and now we gotta put steel on target without starting a major war, and allowing the Russians to save face, when we tell em what exactly they are going to do, how they are going to do it, and how fast they are going to do it. So the Russian president finding out his entire sub fleet is gone, and has B2 bombers flying ominously around, might tend to invoke a good old fashion regime change in Moscow. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/37 "2014-09-01T04:17:39Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Not that he was entirely to blame, the japanese and some european countries shared some of the blame, with technology that allowed the propellers to be more refined, thus quieter. 1. Toshiba sold CNC milling machines that were restricted by the COCOM Agreement, to the Soviets. The CNC machines were required to make super-quiet propellers. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/38 "2014-09-01T17:39:27Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Blow them up, don’t think that would happen. But lets say as a hypothetical that Russia invades a country, for what ever policy reasons that Russia comes up with. Call that hypothetical country, Ukraine, for the sake of argument. > > We pooh poohed them with harsh language, did all the economic sanction thing, and finally the US President calls out the Russian guy for the diplomatic ice bucket challenge. Lines have been drawn, and the Russians give us the raspberry and start pointing ominously at their nukes and seriously suggest that sex and travel is in The US president near future. > > So we did the huggy feely thing, and its not working, and now we gotta put steel on target without starting a major war, and allowing the Russians to save face, when we tell em what exactly they are going to do, how they are going to do it, and how fast they are going to do it. > > So the Russian president finding out his entire sub fleet is gone, and has B2 bombers flying ominously around, might tend to invoke a good old fashion regime change in Moscow. > > Declan It seems to me that ultimately, since nothing happened, spying and paranoia fed into itself and exacerbated the distrust amongst both sides rather than prevent it. Even now, with the conflict in Ukraine, there’s no way the US is going to attack Russia for whatever they do simply because Ukraine is not a NATO nation. In the past 50 years, how many big conflicts between the two countries have lead to each side blowing up the other’s military hardware directly? Wars were all fought by proxies, in Vietnam, in Afghanistan, in the Koreas, almost in Cuba, but nowhere did anyone give the order on either side to blow up the other. All of the spy data, the technology, the hidden codes lead to a big fat nothing. The US spied on the Soviets but we didn’t blow them up in any of the above conflicts, we might as well have stolen Khrushchev’s meat loaf recipe for all the good it did us. Yeah, I’ll admit that some of the technology we took probably helped us by being eventually repurposed for domestic use, but what did all that military information we get do for us? Was it worth the 50 years of distrust? That’s why I’m not so moved by espionage, so what? Let them have the technology. Let them know where all our subs are, and where all our spy satellites are, they won’t attack us so all of it is moot ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/39 "2014-09-01T17:50:31Z")
Complacency breeds contempt. Just because something hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it won’t. No Space Shuttles ever blew up until one did. (And no one worried about foam insulation falling off the tank until it caused a catastrophic failure on re-entry.) Couldn’t it be that the reason we never got into a nuclear war, is due to espionage efforts on both sides? If not for U-2 overflights, we would have had nuclear missiles 90 miles from the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903/40 "2014-09-01T19:14:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Couldn’t it be that the reason we never got into a nuclear war, is due to espionage efforts on both sides? If not for U-2 overflights, we would have had nuclear missiles 90 miles from the U.S. As several people have said, many people are willing to condone spying but not treason. And even among traitors, there might be some respect for somebody like Kim Philby or Wilhelm Canaris, who apparently acted on ideological grounds. The lowest are those who betrayed their own side for money, which is where you have Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen, and John Walker. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spy-john-walker-croaked/696903.md?page=3)