# s's or s' **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 24, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718 "2010-11-24T00:16:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/1 "2010-11-24T00:16:11Z")
It is Strunk and White’s Elements of Style rule 1.1: “Form the possessive singular of nouns by adding 's. […] Thus write, Charles’s friend[.]” Others, however, will write, “Charles’ friend.” To me, the second looks and sounds weird. And for sometimes it is really weird. Take “Camus” for example. If we use the second form, the apostrophe does all kinds of weird things to the pronunciation of the “s.” Think of how you pronounce things. Most people say, “Congress’s current session ends in four days,” not “Congress[’] current session ends in four days.” Possessives should be written the way they are pronounced. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/2 "2010-11-24T00:22:56Z")
Great Debates? No. GREATEST Debate. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/3 "2010-11-24T00:28:00Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Great Debates? > > No. GREATEST Debate. My thoughts exactly. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/4 "2010-11-24T01:27:59Z")
More of a GQ, but [anyway](http://essayinfo.com/sguides/possessives.php): > [@](#): > > Add ‘s to singular common nouns ending in s unless the next word begins with s: the bus’s engine, the bus’ seats, witness’s answer, the witness’ story. > Use only an apostrophe for singular proper names ending in s: Drakes’ decision. And add only an apostrophe to plural proper names ending in s: the Parkses’ home. > Add ‘s to plural nouns not ending is s: children’s passes, men’s bike, women’s rights, women’s room. > Add only an apostrophe to plural nouns ending in s: the girls’ books, boys’ bike, plants’ supervisors, families’ cars. [Others](http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/possessives.htm) say that either way is acceptable but to be consistent. > [@](#): > > Some writers will say that the -s after Charles’ is not necessary and that adding only the apostrophe (Charles’ car) will suffice to show possession. Consistency is the key here: if you choose not to add the -s after a noun that already ends in s, do so consistently throughout your text. William Strunk’s Elements of Style recommends adding the ‘s. (In fact, oddly enough, it’s Rule Number One in Strunk’s “Elementary Rules of Usage.”) You will find that some nouns, especially proper nouns, especially when there are other -s and -z sounds involved, turn into clumsy beasts when you add another s: “That’s old Mrs. Chambers’s estate.” In that case, you’re better off with "Mrs. Chambers’ estate." FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/5 "2010-11-24T04:01:22Z")
Strunk and White (and other style references) only dictate how newspapers and formal or academic documents are written out. They don’t have anything to do with the spoken word or colloquial written usage. In the end, the peoples using a language determine its grammar. NOT the other way around. I’m a former grammar prescriptivist myself, because I was taught AP English by one. So I can understand on one hand where prescriptivists come from. On the other, there’s no excuse for adhering to prescriptivism in the long term. There is no right and wrong when it comes to language, as long as you and your audience are mutually intelligible. Use style guides for formal writing if and when you’re required to do so. And realize that no matter what any individual or governing body tells people to do, people will talk how they want to talk and write how they want to write. And, over time, language idiosyncrasies change, no matter how much the prescriptivists whine about it. This is not a tragedy, it is evolution. Embrace that and be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/6 "2010-11-24T16:25:05Z")
Strunk and White is only one style manual. The _Associated Press Stylebook_ is another – and most print and broadcast media follow it or some variation of it. The AP definitively states that nouns ending in “s” (singular or plural, e.g., girls, measles, United States, General Motors) add only an apostrophe. So most media outlets will follow that style. (I’m not familiar with the _Chicago Manual of Style_, which is used by most outlets that don’t use AP) Granted, the AP adopted that style back in the days when newspapers were typeset by hand, and saving a letter or a space was more important than it is now. But that’s their style, and they’re sticking with it. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/7 "2010-11-24T17:24:10Z")
You also must remember newspapers want to use the least amount of font possible. So to them it would be extra work to write Jones’s House and they would want Jones’ house. I always learned use s’s. Since English has no board of standard grammar, either is acceptable and neither is wrong so long as it’s consistant. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/8 "2010-11-24T17:50:48Z")
I am not arguing that there is aright. I am arguing that there is a better way. It’s a matter of taste. Just like, David Foster Wallace was a better writer than Sarah Palin. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/9 "2010-11-24T17:54:21Z")
I will die before you deny me the joy of typing author Andrew Vachss’s works. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/10 "2010-11-24T18:23:40Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I will die before you deny me the joy of typing author Andrew Vachss’s works. So, you like Vachss’s stories? (I don’t think I’ll ever get another chance to put four esses sequentially like that.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/11 "2010-11-24T18:44:04Z")
I was taught to drop the extra s, so I do. After all, you don’t _say_ “Jameses”, for example. Also, fuck the [Apostrophe Protection Society](http://www.apostrophe.org.uk/). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/12 "2010-11-24T20:37:50Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Great Debates? > > No. GREATEST Debate. I hate to move this thread after a post like that, but I think this belongs in IMHO, not GD. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/13 "2010-11-24T20:53:04Z")
It’s simple to me: ’ after a plural noun ending in s. 's after a singular noun or name, no matter what letter it ends with; or after a plural noun not ending in s. The next word doesn’t figure into it. – from _Wheelz’s common sense rules of style, 2010_. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/14 "2010-11-24T21:03:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I was taught to drop the extra s, so I do. After all, you don’t _say_ “Jameses”, for example. Actually you do. Or you can. I was taught to. When there is more than one person with the last name James, they are the Jameses. Adding an apostrophe would not be technically correct in common usage, because there is no possessive. It’s a plural. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/15 "2010-11-24T21:20:16Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Actually you do. Or you can. I was taught to. When there is more than one person with the last name James, they are the Jameses. > > Adding an apostrophe would not be technically correct in common usage, because there is no possessive. It’s a plural. Yep. If I’m visiting a guy named James, I’m going to James’s house. If I’m visiting the James family, they’re the Jameses, and I’m going to the Jameses’ house. James’ is incorrect in any usage. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/16 "2010-11-24T22:55:02Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > The AP definitively states that nouns ending in “s” (singular or plural, e.g., girls, measles, United States, General Motors) add only an apostrophe. So most media outlets will follow that style. (I’m not familiar with the _Chicago Manual of Style_, which is used by most outlets that don’t use AP). Chicago – which is generally used for books and long-format magazines – wants the s after the apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/17 "2010-11-24T23:11:19Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > It’s simple to me: > ’ after a plural noun ending in s. > 's after a singular noun or name, no matter what letter it ends with; or after a plural noun not ending in s. > > The next word doesn’t figure into it. > > – from _Wheelz’s common sense rules of style, 2010_. I endorse your style guide heartily. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/18 "2010-11-25T00:31:49Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Yep. > If I’m visiting a guy named James, I’m going to James’s house. > If I’m visiting the James family, they’re the Jameses, and I’m going to the Jameses’ house. > > James’ is incorrect in any usage. Says you. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/19 "2010-11-25T04:42:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Says you. :dubious: Says more than just Wheelz. As far as I’ve been educated, Wheelz is right on target. Again, I am not saying that anything is definitively wrong, because that smacks of grammar prescriptivism. But you’re trying to prescriptivize Wheelz (on a commonly-accepted and commonly-taught construction, no less), and that’s quite silly. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718/20 "2010-11-25T06:37:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I was taught to drop the extra s, so I do. After all, you don’t _say_ “Jameses”, for example. > > Also, fuck the [Apostrophe Protection Society](http://www.apostrophe.org.uk/). I took this to mean that you don’t add an extra syllable when when you pronounce James’s. And I most certainly say you do. Now, I have heard people who say Jesus’ name, instead of Jesus’s name. In fact, I remember some rule about the lone apostrophe for historical figures before some date, maybe 1950. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ss-or-s/561718.md?page=2)