# SSM debate and separation of church and state **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187 "2015-07-15T00:15:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/241 "2015-07-17T04:22:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It sounds almost like you want me to thank someone for slapping me in the face. I want you to laugh at them when it ended up blowing up in their face. Live with it **Robert163** , you are not going to be able to dance and piss on their graves. You will not be able to compel them to change their own religion’s limitations on who they marry or to make them shut up about what their religion says against you. You \*\*\*will \*\*\*be able to point and go HA! HA! when they act all butthurt and bitch and moan but can’t do a thing to stop progress. …and weren’t you going to get some sleep? You must be exhausted here. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/242 "2015-07-17T04:23:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually, my problem with Judaism is not what you would think. So then why did you express joy at the idea of being able to outlaw them? Generally speaking its considered bigotry to call for banning minority religions. Why do you not feel that way? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/243 "2015-07-17T04:41:49Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I want you to laugh at them when it ended up blowing up in their face. > > Live with it **Robert163** , you are not going to be able to dance and piss on their graves. You will not be able to compel them to change their own religion’s limitations on who they marry or to make them shut up about what their religion says against you. You \*\*\*will \*\*\*be able to point and go HA! HA! when they act all butthurt and bitch and moan but can’t do a thing to stop progress. > > …and weren’t you going to get some sleep? You must be exhausted here. I got almost a whole 1 1/2 hours of sleep… somewhere between 5 and 7PM. I’m getting itred enough to try and sleep again. As to your comments in general they seem to be wise and are probably the re correct attitude to have. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then why did you express joy at the idea of being able to outlaw them? > > Generally speaking its considered bigotry to call for banning minority religions. > > Why do you not feel that way? I really really don’t think I said I wanted any religion outlawed. Maybe I did. If you can quote that I said it I wouldn’t deny it or defend it, except to say, it’s not something I’d ever say when I was in a rational and calm mood like I am now. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/244 "2015-07-17T04:59:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But my problem is not so much with the their reluctance to provide a morning after pill, my problem is their insistence that GOD doesn’t want their employee’s to have a morning after pill. What’s the supreme source of law in this country, the Constitution or your personal opinions? I’ve asked this twice before, and you haven’t answered. Do you think that other people’s rights should be taken away, just because of your opinions? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/245 "2015-07-17T06:31:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I > I really really don’t think I said I wanted any religion outlawed. Uh, yes you did in fact express rather extreme joy at the prospect of being able to outlaw Judaism. In fact, with your use of the phrase “LOL” and then “bring it on”, your posts looked like that of a 15 year old virgin who’d been told he was going to be given the opportunity to be deflowered by a porn star. > [@](#): > > **Adaher** > Given the central importance of circumcision to Judaism, that would essentially outlaw Judaism. > [@](#): > > **Robert163** > LOL, Good, bring it on!!! Obviously, this is meant as a comment on your post, not about you and, can’t possibly be about you since, IIRC you’re in you’re late 30s or early 40s. Now, meaning no disrespect, but is there a reason you have a hard time remembering your comments from just a short while ago? > [@](#): > > it’s not something I’d ever say when I was in a rational and calm mood like I am now. This is an extremely peculiar excuse for bigotry, particularly from someone who’s practically bragged about being a “middle class straight, white male”. I’ll confess had you said you were poor and grown up in a trailer park and never even graduated high school, I’d have let such repugnant bigotry slide. However, since you’ve made statements which would indicate to most of us that you’ve had a fairly privileged life, I’ll confess to being perplexed. I’ve never heard person of color or even an extremely poor white person make a statement like “I’d ever say when I was in a rational and calm mood like I am now” Are you a recovering addict or someone suffering from bipolar disorder or something similar? I don’t ask to be insulting and if the answer to either is “yes” you shouldn’t be ashamed but the only people I’ve ever met who said things like that were well off white people who’d been told that by a shrink or well off white people who’d been in a treatment facility. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/246 "2015-07-17T07:06:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Quote: > Adaher > Given the central importance of circumcision to Judaism, that would essentially outlaw Judaism. > Quote: > Robert163 > LOL, Good, bring it on!!! That was Sarcasm. And Frustration. And Rudeness. I don’t for a second believe that if you outlawed circumcision (for small children) that it would be the end of Judaism. They would not like it, but they would adapt!!! Hear me clearly, however, in case they could not adapt, if the choice was [A]keep mutilating children _or_ \*\*Wipe out a Religion, I will chose \*\*Wipe out a Religion, and I would choose it without hesitation or regret. > [@](#): > > Now, meaning no disrespect, but is there a reason you have a hard time remembering your comments from just a short while ago? I pretty much remembered my comments were about circumcision and that you had twisted them into something different but I was really hoping I could let that slide and not have to accuse you, rightly, of twisting my words and stirring up personal drama for no good reason. > [@](#): > > _it’s not something I’d ever say when I was in a rational and calm mood like I am now._ > This is an extremely peculiar excuse for bigotry…" Look, I have a lot of bigoted opinions, sure, If I found out someone was a Tea-Party member or a speech writer for FOX news or a politician that - bragged - about busting up unions, I’d probably hate you, automatically, without even getting to know you. And you can put fundamental evangelist christians on the list of people I hate as well. However, lots of people say things a lot more harshly when they are mad then when they are calm. All kinds people do that, of all kinds of gender and race and economic level. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/247 "2015-07-17T08:40:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > That was Sarcasm. And Frustration. And Rudeness. I don’t for a second believe that if you outlawed circumcision (for small children) that it would be the end of Judaism. They would not like it, but they would adapt!!! Hear me clearly, however, in case they could not adapt, if the choice was [A]keep mutilating children _or_ \*\*Wipe out a Religion, I will chose \*\*Wipe out a Religion, and I would choose it without hesitation or regret. Insulting an entire religion out of frustration is not the smartest move in a debate about religion. Then again, being man enough to admit it is helpful. So now that we have established that you do not want to outlaw Judaism, I would also like to debate the idea that Jews are “mutilating” children. I think we can all agree that a religious practice that requires the mutilation of children must be outlawed. But calling male circumcision such a practice is way over the top. According to [Wikipedia](one-third of males worldwide are circumcised)an estimated one-third of males worldwide are circumcised. I think it is hardly fair to say that all of them have been “mutilated”. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/248 "2015-07-17T09:39:28Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Insulting an entire religion out of frustration is not the smartest move in a debate about religion. Then again, being man enough to admit it is helpful. > > So now that we have established that you do not want to outlaw Judaism, I would also like to debate the idea that Jews are “mutilating” children. I think we can all agree that a religious practice that requires the mutilation of children must be outlawed. But calling male circumcision such a practice is way over the top. According to [Wikipedia](one-third of males worldwide are circumcised)an estimated one-third of males worldwide are circumcised. I think it is hardly fair to say that all of them have been “mutilated”. Circumcision resource Center The baby began to gasp and choke, breathless from his shrill continous screams. Over a dozen studies confirm the **extreme pain of circumcision**. It has been described as “among the most painful [procedures] performed in neonatal medicine. [http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm](http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm) From WebMD: What are the risks of circumcision? **Pain** Risk of bleeding and infection at the site of the circumcision Irritation of the glans Increased risk of meatitis (inflammation of the opening of the penis) Risk of injury to the penis [http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision](http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision) ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/249 "2015-07-17T10:01:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Circumcision resource Center > > The baby began to gasp and choke, breathless from his shrill continous screams. > > Over a dozen studies confirm the **extreme pain of circumcision**. It has been described as “among the most painful [procedures] performed in neonatal medicine. > > [http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm](http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm) > > From WebMD: > What are the risks of circumcision? > > **Pain** > Risk of bleeding and infection at the site of the circumcision > Irritation of the glans > Increased risk of meatitis (inflammation of the opening of the penis) > Risk of injury to the penis > > [http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision](http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision) Hi Robert. Do you never sleep? The first source you quoted does not make any attempt at offering a balanced view. If you look up an anti-circumcision campaigning site, you pretty much know what you are going to get. As for the WebMD cite - you quoted that a bit selectively by only listing the risks and skipping the benefits. On the same site ist says: > [@](#): > > The use of circumcision for medical or health reasons is an issue that continues to be debated. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) found that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universalnewborn circumcision. So that site does not really consider male circumcision to be generally harmful - on the contrary. In that it is pretty much in line with what wikipedia says: > [@](#): > > The positions of the world’s major medical organizations range from considering neonatal circumcision as having no benefit and significant risks to having a modest health benefit that outweighs small risks. No major medical organization recommends either universal circumcision for all infant males (aside from the recommendations of the World Health Organization for parts of Africa), or banning the procedure.[7] Ethical and legal questions regarding informed consent and autonomy have been raised over non-therapeutic neonatal circumcision. So I’ll not deny that there is some grounds for debate here. But my appreciation stands: calling it a form of “mutilation” is over the top. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/250 "2015-07-17T10:20:05Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Hi Robert. Do you never sleep? Not much recently. > [@](#): > > The first source you quoted does not make any attempt at offering a balanced view. If you look up an anti-circumcision campaigning site, you pretty much know what you are going to get. True > [@](#): > > As for the WebMD cite - you quoted that a bit selectively by only listing the risks and skipping the benefits. True > [@](#): > > On the same site it says: > So that site does not really consider male circumcision to be generally harmful - on the contrary. In that it is pretty much in line with what wikipedia says: > > So I’ll not deny that there is some grounds for debate here. But my appreciation stands: calling it a form of “mutilation” is over the top. You persuaded me to change my position > [@](#): > > No major medical organization recommends either universal circumcision for all infant males (aside from the recommendations of the World Health Organization for parts of Africa), or banning the procedure. This is why I changed my position No, seriously, if I am wrong (and in a calm mood) I don’t mind admitting I was wrong. My comments before were vitriolic and hostile. I will concede that I stepped over the line and that the other side of the debate has merit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/251 "2015-07-18T14:20:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > As to the example of the Catholic church marrying gays, well part of me says they should have to, just for spite, to punish them for their bigotry, but, as I have learned over the past 2 days, they are protected from that under the freedom of expression clause. Fine, let them be protected, let them hate gays all they want (even though they claim not to, but, how can you not hate something that is an ABOMINATION???) And I think that this spite, this desire to punish religious bigotry underlies a lot of the desire to get crap flying around about forcing people to make wedding cakes and firing people who won’t process gay marriages even though there are others in the office are ready able and willing to do so. Its an understandable feeling but lets be clear that a lot of this argument is based on hurt feelings and not on what the law is (or even should be). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/252 "2015-07-18T14:33:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, I’ll ask two. > > First, why do you enjoy the idea of outlawing Judaism? Where does he say he wants to outlaw Judaism? While appreciate your support on the notion that separation between church and state doesn’t mean what he thinks it means (not even in 1947), its just silly to pretend he said anything approaching that we ought to outlaw judaism. > [@](#): > > Second, since you so foolishly the Constitution mandates “concept B” then please list some cites where the government has sanctioned Churches/Synagogues/ Mosques for doing any of the examples from my other post? I don’t mean to jr. mod but why are the words “since you so foolishly…” necessary? What does it do, other than insult the other person? > [@](#): > > If you’re going to insist that you’ll only answer one question, then answer the second one though both should be pathetically easy to answer unless of course your assertion the US Constitution mandates the US Constitution requires Synagogues allow women to pray alongside men is complete bullshit. Where does he assert this? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/253 "2015-07-18T14:34:22Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Really??? The Hobby Lobby case does not involve a church but it does involve an idea from church, a religious ideal. > > Because religion comes from a time when people didn’t know about germs, didn’t wash their hands, when most people thought the earth was flat, from a time of grave ignorance. Any idea associated to such a period should be viewed with a high degree of skepticism. In 100 years the ideas you are defending are going to look just as ludicrous as the idea from 100 years ago, that a woman could not vote, look ludicrous to us. > > Why are you fighting progress? Just change the first amendment. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/254 "2015-07-18T14:39:15Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So, religious people can discriminate, that is their freedom, but to try and stop them would be discrimination, and, can’t be allowed. Surely you see what a bizarre set of “logic” that is. It’s only rhetoric and double talk that even allows you to be part of the conversation. Its not discrimination to try and stop them from exercising their religious freedom. Its a violation of their first amendment rights to exercise their religious freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/255 "2015-07-18T14:40:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Where does he say he wants to outlaw Judaism? While appreciate your support on the notion that separation between church and state doesn’t mean what he thinks it means (not even in 1947), its just silly to pretend he said anything approaching that we ought to outlaw judaism. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18518553&postcount=44](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18518553&postcount=44) OMFG, you’re right! > [@](#): > > I don’t mean to jr. mod but why are the words “since you so foolishly…” necessary? What does it do, other than insult the other person? This is still a valid point I think. > [@](#): > > Where does he assert this? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/256 "2015-07-18T14:49:24Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Oh you mean the guy that owned other human beings??? Oh wow, what a GREAT source of moral authority he is!!! I thought we were talking about legal authority not moral authority. Separation of church and state is barely a legal concept, it is definitely not a moral concept. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/257 "2015-07-18T14:55:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Because objection to birth control is a religious ideal. If there is a wall of separation between church and state, it matters. I predict that in the next 5 or 10 years the SCOTUS will be forced to hear another case and will reverse their decision. I predict that someone points out that you are wrong about what hobby lobby said. The problem with hobby lobby was not that an employer refused to comply with the law based on religious objections. The problem was that the employer was a corporation which is a separate legal entity from its owners. Sole proprietorships could already do what hobby lobby wanted to do. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/258 "2015-07-18T14:58:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Do you dispute the claim that as our scientific knowledge has grown religious faith has declined? You could just as easily say that religious faith has declined as mortality rates have declined and living standards have improved. Lots of camels that aren’t making it through the eye of the needle these days. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/259 "2015-07-18T15:02:03Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Why are we even talking about something from 1789? Seriously. In 1789 black people were slaves and women couldn’t vote. So why is what they thought in 1789 relevant to 2015? Because that’s when they ratified the constitution, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187/260 "2015-07-18T15:10:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Jesus is the poster child for ignorant and backwards. Whats your favorite story about Jesus? Mine is where he cast the demons out of that dude and cast the demons into pigs and then had the pigs run over a cliff. My favorite story is the one where he sands next to a woman who was about to be stoned for adultery and says “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” [Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery) I also like the one where he values the penny offered by the poor woman over the extravagent donations made by the wealthy for whom the donation is not much of a sacrifice. [Lesson of the widow's mite - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_the_widow%27s_mite) Or the one where they ask him to pick the most important commandment and he pick two. Love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself. I get the feeling you may not really know who Jesus is. Jesus is not just about hating homos and forcing women to have babies. Those are just the two that religous fundamentalists seem to have latched onto (to the point that the frikking pope is telling them to Pope Francis is saying to back off from abortion and homosexual marriage and just talk about Jesus) [NEWS ALERT! Pope Francis Follows Jesus on Abortion - CatholicVote org](http://www.catholicvote.org/news-alert-pope-francis-follows-jesus-on-abortion/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-debate-and-separation-of-church-and-state/725187.md?page=14)