# SSM: Now Utah. How long for all? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915 "2013-12-21T19:41:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/21 "2013-12-22T00:40:53Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > The Mormon’s HAD to disavow it to BE recognized as a state. There was a very clear quid pro quo at the time. I’m not doubting your assertion; however, I’ve seen just the assertion made time after time. Is there any documentation that proves the federal government made that requirement of the territory? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/22 "2013-12-22T00:46:43Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Federal judge, wasn’t he? Yes, and that’s what makes this case interesting. He found the Utah law violates the US constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/23 "2013-12-22T01:14:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, and that’s what makes this case interesting. He found the Utah law violates the US constitution. You misunderstand me. My point is that the OP seems to think that Utah’s conservatism informs the judge’s actions. My point is that he’s a federal judge and thus the state hue (so to speak) is irrelevant. Yes, I realize that the judge declared the state law unconstitutional, but the constitution to which he refers is the federal, not state, constitution. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/24 "2013-12-22T01:37:01Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You misunderstand me. My point is that the OP seems to think that Utah’s conservatism informs the judge’s actions. My point is that he’s a federal judge and thus the state hue (so to speak) is irrelevant. Yes, I realize that the judge declared the state law unconstitutional, but the constitution to which he refers is the federal, not state, constitution. I didn’t read it the same way, but I’ll let **JC** speak for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/25 "2013-12-22T01:54:00Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m not doubting your assertion; however, I’ve seen just the assertion made time after time. Is there any documentation that proves the federal government made that requirement of the territory? You might enjoy “Under the Prophet in Utah” by Frank J. Cannon. (Free on Project Gutenberg.) Cannon was the delegate from Utah who went and negotiated with the U.S. Senate over terms of recognition. He brokered the deal whereby the Mormons would publicly renounce polygamy and the Senate would recognize Utah. I don’t think it was a formal bit of legislation. It was just a deal made between the parties. But without the deal, the U.S. Senate wasn’t going to let Utah become a state. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/26 "2013-12-22T01:58:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not the same thing. He’s not legally married to all his wives, and overturning that law does not change that. > > I always thought that law would be overturned, if challenged, with or without any ruling on SSM. Right, but I don’t know that that’s relevant. The Utah polygamous groups almost never try to be legally married to all their wives. The anti-polygamy law that the state uses (or used) against them is the cohabitation law. Now that that’s gone, you’re going to see a lot less prosecution of polygamous groups. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/27 "2013-12-22T02:35:44Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You might enjoy “Under the Prophet in Utah” by Frank J. Cannon. (Free on Project Gutenberg.) Cannon was the delegate from Utah who went and negotiated with the U.S. Senate over terms of recognition. He brokered the deal whereby the Mormons would publicly renounce polygamy and the Senate would recognize Utah. Thanks. I think I will enjoy reading that. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it was a formal bit of legislation. It was just a deal made between the parties. But without the deal, the U.S. Senate wasn’t going to let Utah become a state. And even after Utah was admitted as a State, the Senate were real pricks about seating the State representation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/28 "2013-12-22T02:54:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I predict it will never happen. By the time places like Oklahoma pass gay marriage, places like New York and New Jersey will be ready to repeal it at the behest of their exploding ultra-religious populations. What “exploding ultra-religious populations” in New York and New Jersey"? Did you hear this from the same person who predicted that Jews on the West Bank will soon outnumber Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/29 "2013-12-22T02:55:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right, but I don’t know that that’s relevant. The Utah polygamous groups almost never try to be legally married to all their wives. The anti-polygamy law that the state uses (or used) against them is the cohabitation law. Now that that’s gone, you’re going to see a lot less prosecution of polygamous groups. How much prosecution under that law was there? Most of the prosecutions we hear about are not for polygamy, but for sexual assault on minors. What I was talking about is some fundamentalist sect actually wanting to be able to legally marry more than one wife. This needn’t be of the Warren Jeffs type, but maybe of the more “mainstream” _Sister Wives_ type. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/30 "2013-12-22T02:58:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You misunderstand me. My point is that the OP seems to think that Utah’s conservatism informs the judge’s actions. My point is that he’s a federal judge and thus the state hue (so to speak) is irrelevant. Yes, I realize that the judge declared the state law unconstitutional, but the constitution to which he refers is the federal, not state, constitution. The senators from the state in question traditionally get a say, at least, in the selection of district court judges. Judge Shelby, while an Obama nominee, was [apparently recommended by Orrin Hatch and supported by Mike Lee](http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/shelby-confirmed-by-senate-as-utah-federal-judge/article_7c185124-6b06-5caa-af6d-943b3db21f33.html) (who nonetheless voted against him in committee for other reasons). I think that it’s fair to say that the culture of Utah informs his worldview, even if it’s not directly related to the legal arguments he was making. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/31 "2013-12-22T08:33:06Z")
\*\*SSM: Now Utah. How long for all? \*\*Methinks Alabama’s gonna make y’all wait a while. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/32 "2013-12-22T10:02:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What “exploding ultra-religious populations” in New York and New Jersey"? > > Did you hear this from the same person who predicted that Jews on the West Bank will soon outnumber Palestinians? I’m guessing this was a reference to ultra-orthodox Jewish sects such as are found in place like Kiryas Joel. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/33 "2013-12-22T10:44:56Z")
> [@ataraxy22](#): > > I’m guessing this was a reference to ultra-orthodox Jewish sects such as are found in place like Kiryas Joel. I can’t imagine any evidence that Hasidic Jewish populations are growing remotely fast enough to cause NY and NJ to reverse gay equality in either state. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/34 "2013-12-22T12:49:19Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Well here in Texas as in some other States, we amended the State Constitution to ban SSM and we do not recognize SSMs from other States. If you same sex marry, say in Utah and move here, poof, you are now un-married. > > Sometimes it is hard to live here. > > **Capt** I like your choice of the word ‘poof’. I suspect that it does not have the same meaning as queer, which it does in the UK which gives a different meaning to the sentence. According to online resources its use to mean gay is much better established in UK English. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/35 "2013-12-22T12:57:43Z")
It is fifty years since my US Civics class at high school, but what happened to “full force and favour” or whatever it is called requiring states to recognise each others laws? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/36 "2013-12-22T13:27:27Z")
“Full faith and credit”; memory fades. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/37 "2013-12-22T13:28:51Z")
“Full faith and credit.” There isn’t precedent for applying the FFC clause to marriages; it was never, for example, applied to interracial marriages pre-_Loving_. ([cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/us/bans-on-interracial-unions-offer-perspective-on-gay-ones.html)) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/38 "2013-12-22T13:37:16Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > “Full faith and credit.” There isn’t precedent for applying the FFC clause to marriages; it was never, for example, applied to interracial marriages pre-_Loving_. ([cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/us/bans-on-interracial-unions-offer-perspective-on-gay-ones.html)) But given the politics of Scotus then (and politics always affects decisions) and now (or soon) why should full faith and credit not apply? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/39 "2013-12-22T13:46:13Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Well here in Texas as in some other States, we amended the State Constitution to ban SSM and we do not recognize SSMs from other States. If you same sex marry, say in Utah and move here, poof, you are now un-married. > > Sometimes it is hard to live here. > > **Capt** This - combined with Pjen’s comment above - is the crux of the matter. The country can’t go on long-term half SSM and half not. The momentum is there for SSM to spread across the country, the question is how long. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915/40 "2013-12-22T14:43:32Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > This - combined with Pjen’s comment above - is the crux of the matter. The country can’t go on long-term half SSM and half not. The momentum is there for SSM to spread across the country, the question is how long. “A House divided against itself cannot stand” **Capt** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ssm-now-utah-how-long-for-all/676915.md?page=3)