SSM proponents need to stop using love as an argument for their case.

[Agent_Foxtrot]

@Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge

And in response to other posters about the love issue, why does marriage have to be about love? There are plenty of straight marriages that are marriages of convenience for one reason or another. It’s no ones business why two people get married.

My thoughts exactly.

[Mangetout]

@Agent_Foxtrot

I know the horse has already left the barn since the SCOTUS ruling, but even as a staunch same-sex-marriage proponent, something’s been really bugging me with one of the arguments our side has been making, specifically, “Two people who love each other should be allowed to get married” in an attempt to appeal to emotion.

I think this argument has actually been hurting our cause. Conservatives, especially the religious conservatives who are leading the campaign against SSM, don’t give one whit about homosexual love. In fact, I think such a thought repulses them and only makes them redouble their efforts.

Better SSM proponents underscore the stance of equality for all under the law, which is a cornerstone of American political thought and might just serve to garner more of the libertarian crowd.

Thoughts?

I don’t think either approach will help - you’re right that talk of love repulses them, but talk that omits it can just be characterised or dismissed as scheming to achieve some evil unnatural goal that is alien to all sense of normal humanity.

There are people for whom no presentation of your viewpoint will be acceptable or palatable - you’re better off doing what is right in spite of them, rather than vainly attempting to get them on board.

[amarinth]

Article about last year’s successful campaigns

As it turns out, “love” is a much better sell than “rights” or “equality” or “fairness” for the audience that can be reached.

[Voyager]

@Mangetout

I don’t think either approach will help - you’re right that talk of love repulses them, but talk that omits it can just be characterised or dismissed as scheming to achieve some evil unnatural goal that is alien to all sense of normal humanity.

There are people for whom no presentation of your viewpoint will be acceptable or palatable - you’re better off doing what is right in spite of them, rather than vainly attempting to get them on board.

A clown had a letter in the Murky News today saying that the Supreme Court has just killed marriage. Not much to do except wait for that part of the electorate to die, to be replaced by more tolerant voters.

[Blackberry]

The love thing has always bugged me a little bit. Not with regard to marriage specifically but when people say they’re okay with homosexuality because “you can’t help who you fall in love with”. Yeah you mostly can. You can’t help who you’re attracted to, and that’s what it’s really about. Love may or may be involved, just like in heterosexual relationships. If they want to bang people they meet in the Cragislist anonymous encounters section, that’s fine too. (Of course I do understand why they wouldn’t use that to try to convince anyone, but it’s still kind of annoying.)

But it also bugs me when people are okay with what people do “in the privacy of their own bedroom” like same sex relationships are solely about sex. So pretty much I can’t be pleased. (Not even really true though…it’s just so obvious to me that people should have the right to be in whatever type of relationship with any other consenting adult just because they can. No need to justify it.)

[Leaper]

@Blackberry

No need to justify it.

Well, that’s sort of the point, isn’t it? Millions of people are demanding gays do, and (more importantly) using the government and courts as their gatekeepers. Thus the whole debate, and thus this thread.

[Blackberry]

@Leaper

Well, that’s sort of the point, isn’t it? Millions of people are demanding gays do, and (more importantly) using the government and courts as their gatekeepers. Thus the whole debate, and thus this thread.

Yeah, I know, I understand why some type of justifications are necessary, but they shouldn’t be. I wish we could just tell the bigots to fuck off and get over it because it’s their own problem if they don’t like it.

But people will say it even when not talking to someone who needs convincing. It’s like they think they need to justify it to themselves somehow. Personally I’m okay with it because being okay with things that other people do that should be obviously within their rights is the default position.

[ZipperJJ]

@Blackberry

But it also bugs me when people are okay with what people do “in the privacy of their own bedroom” like same sex relationships are solely about sex.

But, to me, that’s the only thing that makes heterosexual and homosexual relationships different - what goes on inside the bedroom. I yell at my dad when he goes off about “the fags” and ask him why he thinks about dudes having sex with other dudes so much. To me the only thing that separates him from any other white, blue-collar, old dude who is gay is purely who they want to have sex with. There’s no reason to judge or hate another person based on what goes on inside their bedrooms. There’s no reason to even think about it.

I agree that no relationships are only about what goes on in the bedroom. But that is what the difference is.

[Odesio]

@Agent_Foxtrot

Better SSM proponents underscore the stance of equality for all under the law, which is a cornerstone of American political thought and might just serve to garner more of the libertarian crowd.

Thoughts?

Did you ever have to write a persuasive essay in high school? When you’re trying to build a case for something like same sex marriage the best strategy is to make several arguments in its favor. Those in favor of SSM certainly argued on the grounds that everyone should be equal under the law and they also argued in favor of it under state’s rights, freedom of religion, and, of course, that two people in love shouldn’t be prevented from getting married. That last argument isn’t a bad one because most of us can relate to it. It’d be a bad argument if that was the only one made but it isn’t.

[Gorsnak]

So the OP is all - YouTube which is a pretty good argument really. But the simple truth is - YouTube (holy extreme stereo mixing Batman).

Any questions?

[aruvqan]

@stpauler

Of course, love should be a reason people are getting married.

Why? As long as it is not a forced arranged marriage, why does love have to be a part of it?

I went through hell with an abusive man who loved me. I would settle for friendship, respect and no love from someone who didn’t torment me and was a satisfactory lover and decent provider.

[I ended up with a man who does share love with me, so I got lucky.]

[Miller]

I think the OP may have put his finger on exactly why there has been almost no progress on gay rights issues in the last twenty years.

[etv78]

Zipper-I bet it’s a function of being uncomfortable with how 2 men make love.

[John_Mace]

@Bruce_Wayne

I disagree with the OP. If you don’t hammer home the fact marriage is about love (as it should be), then the other side of the debate is gonna make the “marriage is about procreation” argument. Arguing that SSM is about love puts the ball in your court and makes the other side debate on your terms.

So, tell us. When are you and Robbin gonna finally tie the knot?

[stpauler]

@aruvqan

Why? As long as it is not a forced arranged marriage, why does love have to be a part of it?

I went through hell with an abusive man who loved me. I would settle for friendship, respect and no love from someone who didn’t torment me and was a satisfactory lover and decent provider.

[I ended up with a man who does share love with me, so I got lucky.]

Hmm, well it’s A reason, not the reason. And on top of that, I tend to love my friends, I’d find it weird if I didn’t.

[Little_Nemo]

There are a number of different reasons why two people of the same sex should be allowed to marry. There are arguments based on emotion and on equality and on fairness and on economics and on minding your own business. There’s no reason why proponents for same-sex marriage should restrict themselves to just one argument.

[ZipperJJ]

@etv78

Zipper-I bet it’s a function of being uncomfortable with how 2 men make love.

But why are these people thinking about how 2 men make love? My point is that it is nobody’s business. I don’t like thinking about how my grandparents make love, or how my 5th grade math teacher makes love, or how my best friends make love. But I don’t have a problem with them being married. Cuz how they make love is absolutely 100% none of my business, nor anyone else in this country.

[Blackberry]

@ZipperJJ

But, to me, that’s the only thing that makes heterosexual and homosexual relationships different - what goes on inside the bedroom. I yell at my dad when he goes off about “the fags” and ask him why he thinks about dudes having sex with other dudes so much. To me the only thing that separates him from any other white, blue-collar, old dude who is gay is purely who they want to have sex with. There’s no reason to judge or hate another person based on what goes on inside their bedrooms. There’s no reason to even think about it.

I agree that no relationships are only about what goes on in the bedroom. But that is what the difference is.

I felt like you were wrong and I was going to say why but I can’t come up with a reason, so perhaps you’re right

[typoink]

@ZipperJJ

But, to me, that’s the only thing that makes heterosexual and homosexual relationships different - what goes on inside the bedroom.

Yeah, but…I don’t think you’re part of the problem.

Talking about “what they do in the privacy of their bedroom” irks people because it can evoke a sense of “it’s fine what they do in their bedroom as long as it stays there.” For a lot of gay folks, it’s not just a fight about who they want to have sex with, it’s about wanting to be able to dress, talk, and act like themselves. All the time.

[ZipperJJ]

@typoink

Yeah, but…I don’t think you’re part of the problem.

Talking about “what they do in the privacy of their bedroom” irks people because it can evoke a sense of “it’s fine what they do in their bedroom as long as it stays there.” For a lot of gay folks, it’s not just a fight about who they want to have sex with, it’s about wanting to be able to dress, talk, and act like themselves. All the time.

Kind of sounds like a cyclical argument (and no doubt that, from where I stand, people against SSM have no actual argument.) Is the problem with “man lying with man” or is it with a guy who talks with a lisp and wears high heels? So what about the guys who wear combat boots (in combat) and talk like John Wayne and also have sex with men? What about the guy who talks with a lisp and fucks women every day?

People are just looney.