# St Crispin's Day face-off: Olivier versus Branagh ! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 25, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741 "2015-10-25T17:31:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/21 "2015-10-26T10:53:49Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > No contest. Branagh is far better. And not only in this play, role, or moment. > > For example, his Hamlet blows away the very famous Olivier Hamlet as well. It may be a different time, but I just think Branagh is a lot more talented than Olivier. As you suggest, I think Olivier does suffer from delivering a now unfashionable form of acting. As well as being “classical” he was very much of his period - his filmed Hamlet is overtly Freudian, his Henry V is overtly patriotic. Still, his voice is absolutely beautiful, and when you watch him deliver this performance as Richard III he is majestic. [http://www.shakespeare-online.com/plots/henryvps.html](http://www.shakespeare-online.com/plots/henryvps.html) Olivier often leaves me cold. However, with clips such as the one above you do see what his contemporaries must have admired about him. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/22 "2015-10-26T11:06:34Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > This may help: > > [http://www.shakespeare-online.com/plots/henryvps.html](http://www.shakespeare-online.com/plots/henryvps.html) Thanks very much 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/23 "2015-10-26T11:12:42Z")
I would recommend Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare to help with historical context for any of the plays. It is available free online. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/24 "2015-10-26T12:44:38Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I would recommend Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare to help with historical context for any of the plays. It is available free online. OK. Thank you as well, Doctor! 🙂 P.S. For anyone else interested in this, the only copies I could find available were at Amazon. I couldn’t find any that were free. But thank you anyway. Maybe I just missed it. However, the following site recommended by Fuzzy\_Wuzzy is excellent. > **[Shakespeare's Henry V Plot Summary](https://www.shakespeare-online.com/plots/henryvps.html)** > > Detailed plot synopsis of Shakespeare's King Henry V, from your trusted Shakespeare source. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/25 "2015-10-26T13:13:29Z")
Try here: [https://allshakespeareproject.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/asimovs-guide-to-shakespeare-volume-ii-the-english-plays1.pdf](https://allshakespeareproject.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/asimovs-guide-to-shakespeare-volume-ii-the-english-plays1.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/26 "2015-10-26T13:22:43Z")
[Not exactly the St. Crispin’s Day speech.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmlFY6eeLzw) StG ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/27 "2015-10-26T13:39:20Z")
StGermain, Most Excellent! Thanks ever so much. 🙂🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/28 "2015-10-26T15:46:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Thing is, the Branagh version can and does depict those battles and the epic scope, so… screw your imaginations, audience! I think he did a good job fooling you. His “epic scope” was done on a very small budget. Slo-mo and tight shots can do wonders. To me the Oliver speech lacks any emotion or soul. The moment where Branagh goes quiet for “We few…” In that moment, in his eyes, I see someone who knows he is probably leading them all to their deaths against 5-1 odds. The rest is the bravado needed to have some chance. A brilliant bit of acting. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/29 "2015-10-26T15:58:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, in fact what I remember most of that film is not Branagh’s speech (yes, he wins) but the “Non Nobis, Domine” Doyle wrote for it. It was a throwaway line for Shakespeare, but Branagh and Doyle made it the dramatic highlight. Having the priest and soldiers sing it to humbly celebrate their victory, interspersed with scenes of Henry carrying his dead brother’s body to the funeral pyre, made it one of the great films ever. Nitpick. He is not carrying his brother’s body. He is carrying young Christian Bale who played Robin, the boy slaughtered with the baggage train. He was low born and IIRC the son of Pistol. The attack on the baggage train did happen so there is no surprise that Shakespeare put in a scene that made the bad guys look worse. He happened to leave out the part where Henry ordered maybe up to several thousand prisoners put to death. The number seems to be in dispute but not the order. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/30 "2015-10-26T15:59:24Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I would recommend Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare to help with historical context for any of the plays. It is available free online. I agreed. I got a lot out of that book, and often go back to it when seeing a new (to me) Shakespeare production. > [@Loach](#): > > I think he did a good job fooling you. His “epic scope” was done on a very small budget. Slo-mo and tight shots can do wonders… I wish Branagh, and the production team for _Excalibur_, had bigger budgets. They did their best but it’s all too obvious that they just couldn’t afford to fill the battlefield with armored knights. > [@Loach](#): > > …To me the Oliver speech lacks any emotion or soul. The moment where Branagh goes quiet for “We few…” In that moment, in his eyes, I see someone who knows he is probably leading them all to their deaths against 5-1 odds. The rest is the bravado needed to have some chance. A brilliant bit of acting. Yes, I’d pick Branagh over Olivier, too. Different methods, different times, but Branagh’s King Henry is the one I’d follow into the jaws of hell. Tom Hiddleston did _Henry V_ for PBS not long ago, and it was pretty good, but not in Branagh’s league IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/31 "2015-10-26T16:13:53Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Nitpick. He is not carrying his brother’s body. He is carrying young Christian Bale who played Robin, the boy slaughtered with the baggage train. He was low born and IIRC the son of Pistol. > > The attack on the baggage train did happen so there is no surprise that Shakespeare put in a scene that made the bad guys look worse. He happened to leave out the part where Henry ordered maybe up to several thousand prisoners put to death. The number seems to be in dispute but not the order. Shakespeare didn’t leave that out – it’s definitely in the text, although it may be cut in one or both film versions. Henry gives the order twice, actually, once before he gets the word that the boys have been killed and once after. > [@](#): > > But, hark! what new alarum is this same? > The French have reinforced their scatter’d men: > Then every soldier kill his prisoners: > Give the word through. > [@](#): > > I was not angry since I came to France > Until this instant. Take a trumpet, herald; > Ride thou unto the horsemen on yon hill: > If they will fight with us, bid them come down, > Or void the field; they do offend our sight: > If they’ll do neither, we will come to them, > And make them skirr away, as swift as stones > Enforced from the old Assyrian slings: > Besides, we’ll cut the throats of those we have, > And not a man of them that we shall take > Shall taste our mercy. Go and tell them so. The boy isn’t Pistol’s son, incidentally (although the tavern characters do make up a family-of-choice of sorts); he’s probably the same boy that Prince Hal gave Falstaff as a page in _2 Henry IV_, so he’s someone the king would have met and known. **ETA:** Oh, and Branagh. All the way. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/32 "2015-10-26T16:22:18Z")
Call me a dinosaur, but I prefer Olivier. Branagh is better at the more personal scenes, like wooing the princess, but Olivier is better at the grand speeches. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/33 "2015-10-26T16:23:44Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Shakespeare didn’t leave that out – it’s definitely in the text, although it may be cut in one or both film versions. Henry gives the order twice, actually, once before he gets the word that the boys have been killed and once after. > > The boy isn’t Pistol’s son, incidentally (although the tavern characters do make up a family-of-choice of sorts); he’s probably the same boy that Prince Hal gave Falstaff as a page in _2 Henry IV_, so he’s someone the king would have met and known. > > **ETA:** Oh, and Branagh. All the way. Thanks for that. It’s been a while since I read the play. I figured he wasn’t his son but he was his ward of sorts. ETA I rewatched the battle scene. In your second quote he says the first two lines as the Herald rides up. He grabs him and roughs him up a bit then it jumps to the Herald asking for time to gather their dead. No mention of killing prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/34 "2015-10-26T16:39:14Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Thanks for that. It’s been a while since I read the play. > > I figured he wasn’t his son but he was his ward of sorts. > > ETA I rewatched the battle scene. In your second quote he says the first two lines as the Herald rides up. He grabs him and roughs him up a bit then it jumps to the Herald asking for time to gather their dead. No mention of killing prisoners. Yeah, I had a feeling it might have been cut from the film version. (They both edit out or downplay some of Henry’s less admirable characteristics, although Branagh is better than Olivier in this regard.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/35 "2015-10-26T17:21:20Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > But, at that same 1:35 minute mark, a rider approaches. This rider is dressed in a uniform bearing the Fleur-des-Lis which made it seem as if he was on the French side. Branaugh spoke to him of a ransom and it seemed like he told him that he would not be getting any ransom and he could just beat it back from whence he came. The funny thing was that I could have sworn this rider was a dead ringer for Patrick Stewart from Star Trek TNG fame. But I checked the list of credits for this film and also checked Patrick Stewart’s list of credits and he was not listed in the credits for the film and neither was “Henry V” listed in Stewart’s credits. Is it possible this rider was actually Patrick Stewart? If not, can someone tell me who it was and whether it was reasonable for me to think he looked like Patrick Stewart? The herald, Mountjoy, was played by [Christopher Ravenscroft](http://resizing.flixster.com/65k3UYvGQGNWKzWtqdHiI2Cq_Mo=/327x303/dkpu1ddg7pbsk.cloudfront.net/photo/11/10/49/11104995_ori.jpg). I don’t see any particular resemblance to [Patrick Stewart.](http://www.blastr.com/sites/blastr/files/styles/blog_post_media/public/images/PatrickStewart022312.jpg?itok=O0ZBZypy) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/36 "2015-10-27T00:08:17Z")
Big noses and slanty eyes. I recall an interview with Branagh where he told of how scared he was giving the speech in front of so many Shakespearian actor more famous than he. When Ian Holm grunted and mumbled something like “That’s the way it’s done,” he nearly collapsed from relief. Ken for the win. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/37 "2015-10-27T00:09:41Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Big noses and slanty eyes. > > I recall an interview with Branagh where he told of how scared he was giving the speech in front of so many Shakespearian actor more famous than he. When Ian Holm grunted and mumbled something like “That’s the way it’s done,” he nearly collapsed from relief. > > Ken for the win. Wow. What a moment. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/38 "2015-10-27T02:37:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The herald, Mountjoy, was played by [Christopher Ravenscroft](http://resizing.flixster.com/65k3UYvGQGNWKzWtqdHiI2Cq_Mo=/327x303/dkpu1ddg7pbsk.cloudfront.net/photo/11/10/49/11104995_ori.jpg). I don’t see any particular resemblance to [Patrick Stewart.](http://www.blastr.com/sites/blastr/files/styles/blog_post_media/public/images/PatrickStewart022312.jpg?itok=O0ZBZypy) I think he looks like _Psycho_’s Anthony Perkins. First time I saw the film I thought that’s who it was. > [@StGermain](#): > > [Not exactly the St. Crispin’s Day speech.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmlFY6eeLzw) > > StG I thought for sure this was going to be [Bill Pullman’s anemic attempt from _Independence Day_.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoLywiaM6PA) > [@Lantern](#): > > Actually the Olivier scene looks like it had a bigger budget for the sets and extras. Like I said shooting in technicolor would have imposed some constraints but he could have done a lot more with editing and music. > > I think the basic problem was that at this point Olivier didn’t really know how to translate the essence of the passage into cinema. The passage is about how battle erases distinctions of rank and forges a group of men into a “band of brothers”. Does the Olivier scene look like a band of brothers? It looks like a king making a speech and his soldiers standing around him like props. Compare that with how Branagh uses reaction shots to show the bond between Henry and his soldiers. > > This is not to knock Olivier who was a magnificent actor; I just don’t think he was a very good movie director in 1944; IIRC this was his directorial debut. I don’t think its specifically Olivier’s directing, it’s merely how Shakespeare was done on film until more recent times. The first generation of film actors were all 100% from the stage (previously the only kind of acting there was). And acting in films was scoffed at by professional actors in the early days as not being real acting, but as being just a gimmick. Same thing would happen with film vs TV and network TV vs cable and now cable vs Netflix etc. Anyway, any stage actors worth their salt have performed lots of Shakespeare, it’s simply always part of how acting is learned. So needless to say, among professional actors Shakespeare is sacrosanct. Combine that with the notions that movies were viewed as inferior to the stage, and that by the 20th century Shakespeare was viewed as definitely **not** for the masses but for the upper crust, and what you get is films like Olivier’s. IOW putting any of Shakespeare’s plays onto film\* at all \*was viewed as being crass and inappropriate. He did not write his plays in the language of film (master shot, medium shot, close up, reaction shots, A/B roll, or editing of any kind). So any Shakespearean movies that _were_ made were shot essentially as just a filmed stage play. Film-type realism in every aspect (acting, lighting, sets etc.) was deliberately avoided, even in expensive productions. For me, this is something that makes Branagh’s _Henry V_ even more amazing. He does integrate both modern film-making techniques as well as realistic, ‘method’-type acting with the Elizabethan dialog and stories. And what he creates is a faithful adaptation of Shakespeare for modern cinema. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/39 "2015-10-27T03:33:14Z")
Olivier’s movie has a self-conscious staginess and cleanness that I actually like… I just don’t like it as much as Branagh’s gritty, post-Falklands, war-is-hell realism. ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741/40 "2015-10-27T03:41:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, in fact what I remember most of that film is not Branagh’s speech (yes, he wins) but the “Non Nobis, Domine” Doyle wrote for it. It was a throwaway line for Shakespeare, but Branagh and Doyle made it the dramatic highlight. Having the priest and soldiers sing it to humbly celebrate their victory, interspersed with scenes of Henry carrying his dead brother’s body to the funeral pyre, made it one of the great films ever. Exactly. The music is magnificent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-crispins-day-face-off-olivier-versus-branagh/735741.md?page=3)