# St. Elsewhere finale
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [November 13, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558 "2004-11-13T11:19:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/1 "2004-11-13T11:19:44Z")
I only ever saw it once, and I wasn’t a big fan of the show. Didn’t see every episode; I just watched the finale for the same reason I watched the **Newhart** and **Cheers** finales: because they were a Big Deal.
So my question is…
…what exactly was said in that last scene to make it **clear** that St. Elegius only existed in the snowglobe, and the staff only existed in the kid’s mind?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/2 "2004-11-13T12:00:55Z")
I’m going to take a chance that spoiler tags are not actually necessary.
In the final episode, everthing has proceeded fairly normally (although longtime senior staffer Dr. Daniel Auschlander has been found dead in his office) and we’re given an exterior shot of the hospital with a fresh dusting of snow landing on it. Suddenly the entire image shakes and the camera zooms out to show that the hospital building is actually inside a snowglobe held by Tommy Westphall, the autistic son of Donald Westphall, who’d been a senior staffer at the hospital (though he’d left in the last season).
Donald (played by Ed Flanders), enters the house and speaks briefly with his father (played by Norman Lloyd - the same actor who played Auschlander) about Tommy, remarking on how the boy is living in a world of his own. From the dialog, you can figure out that these two men are not doctors (and incidentally, their “regular” St. Elsewhere characters were not related) so it’s implied that all of the drama we’ve been watching for six years existed exclusively in the mind of Tommy, who presumably has “cast” his fantasy world with familiar faces (suggesting but not stating that _all_ the characters in _St. Elsewhere_ were people in Tommy’s “real” life).
Overall, I find the ending a bit unnecessary. Strictly speaking, it should rule out any chance of a _St. Elsewhere_ reunion movie, unless the writers decide _that’s_ just a figment of Tommy’s imagination, too.
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### Author:  [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/3 "2004-11-13T12:25:15Z")
I see. Thank you.
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### Author:  [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/4 "2004-11-13T17:31:39Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#):
>
> I’m going to take a chance that spoiler tags are not actually necessary.
Heh. 🙂
> [@](#):
>
> _Overall, I find the ending a bit unnecessary._
Same here: seems to me that such a clever show could have come up with a better ending. And you’re right that it would seem to rule out the possibility of an _Elsewhere_ reunion . . . do you know if there has there ever been talk of one (something more serious than the contrived _Scrubs_ bit, I mean)?
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/5 "2004-11-13T19:03:21Z")
> [@Misnomer](#):
>
> And you’re right that it would seem to rule out the possibility of an _Elsewhere_ reunion . . . do you know if there has there ever been talk of one (something more serious than the contrived _Scrubs_ bit, I mean)?
The closest I ever heard was a talk-show interview of Howie Mandel who was asked if there’d be a _St. Elsewhere_ reunion. He replied that there already was one; it was called _E.R._
_St. Elsewhere_ was essentially a genre piece and the supporting characters weren’t especially memorable, nor did the show end when it was at the peak of its popularity, which would have ensured a lasting impression. _St. Elsewhere_ has since been replaced with other hospital-based shows, so it’s not like fans of the genre are being deprived. The central actor (Ed Flanders - assuming, the _has_ a definable center) is deceased and I doubt Denzel Washington (by far the most famous alumnus) would be interested. Without those two, a reunion would rely mostly on Ed Begley, Howie Mandel, Christina Pickles, David Morse and maybe William Daniels, and frankly an appendectomy without anesthetic sounds like a more appealing way to spend an evening.
All the recent _L.A. Law_ reunion movie did was show how badly some of the actors had aged, especially in comparison to the eye-candy casting of _Ally McBeal_. I wouldn’t bet on seeing _St. Elsewhere - The Return_ anytime soon.
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### Author:  [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/6 "2004-11-13T20:02:01Z")
> [@](#):
>
> St. Elsewhere was essentially a genre piece and the supporting characters weren’t especially memorable,
Excuse me? I must disagree with you here. St. Elsewhere had, imho, one of the best characters ever to appear on TV in the form of Dr. Craig (William Daniels). The character had more depth and substance that the entire cast and plot of ER. The only comparisson between the two shows is that they are both set in a hospital. St. Elsewhere was quirky, funny and at times very moving. A far superior show to the cynical tear-jerker that is ER.
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### Author:  [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/7 "2004-11-13T20:18:02Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#):
>
> …[T]he show [didn’t] end when it was at the peak of its popularity, which would have ensured a lasting impression.
I have no idea what the ratings were like the last season or two – but **St. Elsewhere** is one of the only long-running shows I was still watching faithfully during its last season. Another one I stuck with all the way through was along with **Homicide**.
Shows I gave up on before the last season – sometimes _significantly_ before the last season – include **ER, LA Law, Hill Street Blues, The Practice, Northern Exposure, Picket Fences, Cheers, Friends, Frasier** , and \*\* NYPD Blue\*\*.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/8 "2004-11-13T20:32:01Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#):
>
> Donald (played by Ed Flanders), enters the house and speaks briefly with his father (played by Norman Lloyd - the same actor who played Auschlander) about Tommy, remarking on how the boy is living in a world of his own. From the dialog, you can figure out that these two men are not doctors (and incidentally, their “regular” St. Elsewhere characters were not related) so it’s implied that all of the drama we’ve been watching for six years existed exclusively in the mind of Tommy, who presumably has “cast” his fantasy world with familiar faces (suggesting but not stating that _all_ the characters in _St. Elsewhere_ were people in Tommy’s “real” life).
My problem with this concept is that all the characters involved with Cheers would also have to exist exclusively in Tommy’s mind.
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### Author:  [@Lillith\_Fair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lillith_Fair)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/9 "2004-11-13T20:34:32Z")
We should use the custom they use in England. They plan a show to last a certain period of time, then it is over. At least it seems that way.
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### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/10 "2004-11-13T21:26:36Z")
The chances of a St. Elsewhere reunion are pretty low, if not nonexistent since its creator, Bruce Paltrow, has passed away.
Also Ed Flanders isn’t around anymore.
Norman Lloyd, whom I so closely identified with his character of Dr. Auschlander, is still with us.
I really liked the show, but it got very dark at times and I think David Morse’s character went through a lot more than Anthony Edwards ever had to in “ER”. Wife dies, raped in prison, rapist gets out of prison and attacks his new family, son kills rapist.
I think that Mark Harmon’s character was one of the first TV characters to die of AIDS.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/11 "2004-11-13T22:13:58Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> My problem with this concept is that all the characters involved with Cheers would also have to exist exclusively in Tommy’s mind.
Not to mention Michael Dukakis, who made a rather amusing cameo in 1985 when he limped into the E.R. after twisting his ankle while jogging and couldn’t get Howie Mandel to believe he was the Governor.
Mandel: [taking a history] Name?
Dukakis: Michael Dukakis.
M: Occupation?
D: Governor of the State of Masschusetts.
M: All right, stop kidding around!
Stephen Furst: [recognizing D] Your honor!
I’ll agree that William Daniels is memorable, but the rest of the cast was pretty much one-note, with Begley’s Ehrlich being constantly told he was a pig, Mandel as the comic relief, Furst as the fat guy, and the rest… kinda blurring into each other, actually. Norman Lloyd may still be around, but his character definitely died, which seemed an appropriate ending since it was revealed in the _first_ episode that he had liver cancer.
In the later seasons, they did seem to go for more gimmickery and shock value, like Morse’s prison rape, and the presto-chango cast changes (Ronny Cox, France Nuyen, Cindy Picket, Bruce Greenwood) didn’t help.
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### Author:  [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/12 "2004-11-13T22:22:38Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> My problem with this concept is that all the characters involved with Cheers would also have to exist exclusively in Tommy’s mind.
Wow, then you’re going to love (or maybe hate) [this site](http://home.vicnet.net.au/~kwgow/crossovers.html). This guy has woven together cross-over appearances from various shows over the years, and has concluded that _ **over 170** _ TV series are apparently figments of Tommy Westphall’s imagination. :eek:
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### Author:  [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/13 "2004-11-13T23:01:55Z")
No, the truly disturbing moment in the St Elsewhere series finale was after the closing credits, when the MTM logo kitten flatlined. It didn’t help matters that we had had to put my cat down two days before the show aired.
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### Author:  [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/14 "2004-11-14T00:03:44Z")
I’d never heard abut the final episode.
WOW!
This autistic kid not only imagines these characters, he imagines them in
–Six seasons
–20-some segments per season
–Beginning, middle, end plot structures for each segment
–Commercial breaks for each segment
–Different directorial styles for each segment
–Close-ups, establishing shots, long shots, fades, wipes, cross-fades, fades to black
–Credits
HOLY GODDAMN, what an amazing kid!
My fantasies are usually just Mastershots and snippets of dialogue.
Sir Rhosis
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### Author:  [@Fern\_Forest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fern_Forest)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/15 "2004-11-14T01:05:59Z")
I guess it does explain how Bob Newhart could dream up the entire Newhart series while still allowing for some Newhart characters to appear on other shows.
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### Author:  [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/16 "2004-11-14T04:54:43Z")
> [@Sir Rhosis](#):
>
> WOW!
>
> This autistic kid not only imagines these characters, he imagines them in
>
> –Six seasons
> –20-some segments per season
> –Beginning, middle, end plot structures for each segment
> –Commercial breaks for each segment
> –Different directorial styles for each segment
> –Close-ups, establishing shots, long shots, fades, wipes, cross-fades, fades to black
> –Credits
>
> HOLY GODDAMN, what an amazing kid!
>
> My fantasies are usually just Mastershots and snippets of dialogue.
>
> Sir Rhosis
Yeah, I wonder about that too. Would _any_ kid, let alone an autistic one, know enough about characterizations and interpersonal relationships to invent such stories? Seems like an autistic would make up very long, very boring (to anyone without medical training) stories about the mechanics of surgery, with no insight into the psyches of the patients or the staff.
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### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/17 "2004-11-14T07:50:43Z")
I think we’re all getting a little too caught up in how the last episode of St. Elsewhere has made the universe collapse on itself.
I think the device at the end was just Paltrow and Fontana’s way of saying that you need to remember that everything was made up. I don’t think it was a commentary on autism or anything like that.
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### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/18 "2004-11-14T18:33:44Z")
Well… the cast of “Cheers” need not be figments of Tommy’s imagination. It’s possible Tommy saw some of these characters on TV, and somehow weaved THEM into his recurring fantasies.
Seriously, though, that was a dumb, gimmicky ending. I actually liked the “real” ending that immediately preceded it. Fiscus had tendered his resignation, and was working feverishly on his last day of work. He kept working long after the point at which he was supposed to leave St. Eligius for good, apparently reluctant to go. Ronny Cox tells him to clock out, and Fiscus says “It ain’t over til the fat lady sings.”
Right then, an opera soprano who had checked into the hospital with laryngitis starts belting out an aria.
Not a brilliant ending, but a nice, simple, clever ending to a good series. Much better than the “it was all a dream” epilogue.
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### Author:  [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/19 "2004-11-14T22:14:44Z")
They had a hard time filming the ending because Ed Flanders wouldn’t read a certain part of a speech he was supposed to give to the staff. He just started going on and on about the meaning of life and such. So they had to cut out some of it for time and replaced it with a shot with a POV of Dr. Westphall looking at the staff with music playing over it.
Ed Flanders was bothered by a mental illness of some kind (depression I believe), which I assume was one of the reasons why he comitted suicide in 1995.
A lot of the cast has gone to make guest appearances or recurring guest roles on “JAG”: Cynthia Sikes, Jennifer Savidge, Mark Harmon (In a crossover from NCIS, which Bonnie Bartlett has appeared on), Kim Miyori, and Cristina Pickles.
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### Author:  [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-elsewhere-finale/274558/20 "2004-11-15T02:25:53Z")
-droll glance-
Everybody steals from everybody. Anyone who knows the first 5 minutes of “Citizen Kane” knows that Mr. Paltrow gave a huge nod to Orson Welles and made use of the entire iconography and sub-text of the snow-globe.
Gave it his own spin and called it his own.
-Shrug- homage, theft, unoriginal way out… whatever. Sour grapes? Hardly. I steal too.
But let us be open about this one.
Cartooniverse