# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/221 "2018-09-25T01:23:35Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If he wants us to rely on faith, why do miracles at all? Faith is for the faithful. There are unbelievers: the miracles are and effort to convince them. But, you see, if the miracles are _too_ good, it is just too easy to become faithful. The deity needs people with high-quality faith. If you get believers whose faith is flawed, as you would if you played it up too much, your efforts end up being counter-productive. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/222 "2018-09-25T10:02:00Z")
So you have to have the right kind of faith, in just the right amount? Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/223 "2018-09-25T13:11:51Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > So you have to have the right kind of faith, in just the right amount? > > Gotcha. Doesn’t take much - > [@JESUS @ Matthew 17:20 (NIV)](#): > > He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” So, apparently having even a ‘little’ faith is very poweful - but no one actually has even that much. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/224 "2018-09-25T15:23:41Z")
I think that if there was a God that had the power to materially affect objects and that God chose to use his power by performing obscure parlor tricks rather than doing good on Earth…well, that’s not a God I want to associate with. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/225 "2018-09-25T19:57:14Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > If god proved he existed then everybody would be bothering him all the time. As much as I dislike God not answering my prayers he’s probably too busy. He answers your prayers. As The Onion headline says, he says “no.” Perhaps you didn’t bribe him well enough. We know from the Bible that God takes bribes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/226 "2018-09-25T20:37:07Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > What if the rational and conscious being that created all matter and is the essense of good (the one we call God) decided to make himself known to humanity. > > He decided to make himself known by becoming a human himself and living among us in a particular place and at a particular time. Because he is good, he chose the woman who he wanted to be his mother, and decided to preserve her from sin. He also decided that she would remain a virgin even though she would be pregnant and give birth. This child was born and lived a life of humility and service. He taught good things, and established a perpetual institution called The Church for the purpose of dispensing salvation to all people for all time. He then suffered a criminal’s death. He then unmistakably showed who he was all along by rising from the dead and then ascending into heaven. > > That would just be so lame right? So, God didn’t make himself known to Abraham? To Moses? During the Exodus? You realize the requirement for a virgin birth comes from a mistranslation by the writer of Matthew? There is no such requirement in the Messianic prophecies - then or now. Do you realize that the belief that God cannot save people directly demeans god? The Gospel writers, as has been said above, made up stuff to make it look like Jesus met the messianic prophecies. He did not, not even close. A true Messiah would have lasted more than a week in the big city. If I were an alien and was asked who seemed to be more favored of god, Mohamed or Jesus, Mohamed would win every time. The Gospel writers thought he was coming back soon. They were wrong. I am quite aware of how Christians pull random passages out of the Prophets to justify themselves, and ignore the passages that clearly document what the Messiah would be and do. Pitiful, really. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/227 "2018-09-25T20:43:21Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The world is here. We’re here. The universe can be studied and understood. It should be obvious that there is a source. Why do we need some voice from the heavens? Why can’t God just be humble? Why does the source have to be an intelligent entity? Why does the source have to have anything to do with the God you believe in? If God made the universe for us, why wait 13 billion years or so for us to show up? I know that Catholics don’t believe the Genesis story as being literal, but why wouldn’t god inspire something a bit closer to the truth? If the universe were created by a deity, it seems more likely that the deity would be one for a distant world that is unimaginably old - and we just evolved accidentally in the universe created for his or her real people. We can just hope the real god doesn’t want to clean up. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/228 "2018-09-25T21:16:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Why does the source have to be an intelligent entity? Why does the source have to have anything to do with the God you believe in? If God made the universe for us, why wait 13 billion years or so for us to show up? If, as has been suggested elsewhere, the deity is omnipotent, doing stuff is a bit of a challenge: in order to exert power, some other bit of power must be ceded. Hence, the deity must use its omniscient cunning to overcome its own omnipotence. Things may not be so straightforward for a superbeing. > [@](#): > > I know that Catholics don’t believe the Genesis story as being literal, but why wouldn’t god inspire something a bit closer to the truth? The language of a deity is almost certainly different from the language of mortals. The anointed ones had to figure out how to express what they heard from the holy voice. Translation errors are inevitable, even in the very first draft. Later scribes had to adjust the holy writ in order for it to make sense in their language and culture. And subsequent translations had to make additional accomodations, _ad infinitum_. > [@](#): > > If the universe were created by a deity, it seems more likely that the deity would be one for a distant world that is unimaginably old - and we just evolved accidentally in the universe created for his or her real people. > We can just hope the real god doesn’t want to clean up. _oopsie_ … ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/229 "2018-09-25T21:33:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If the universe were created by a deity, it seems more likely that the deity would be one for a distant world that is unimaginably old - and we just evolved accidentally in the universe created for his or her real people. Heck, based on the available evidence, anyone using the “fine tuning” argument should be told that the universe looks fine-tuned for the existence of cats, and that humans are just here to feed and care for cats. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/230 "2018-09-25T21:44:30Z")
Based on its reported behavior, one could easily conclude that the prime deity is in fact a cat. This leads to a belief system called “Catheism”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/231 "2018-09-25T22:00:56Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > If, as has been suggested elsewhere, the deity is omnipotent, doing stuff is a bit of a challenge: in order to exert power, some other bit of power must be ceded. Hence, the deity must use its omniscient cunning to overcome its own omnipotence. Things may not be so straightforward for a superbeing. A creator deity doesn’t have to be omniscient, so that problem doesn’t come up. But 12 billion years? He must sleep in most mornings. > [@](#): > > The language of a deity is almost certainly different from the language of mortals. The anointed ones had to figure out how to express what they heard from the holy voice. Translation errors are inevitable, even in the very first draft. Later scribes had to adjust the holy writ in order for it to make sense in their language and culture. And subsequent translations had to make additional accomodations, _ad infinitum_. Nah, just “it happened a long. long time ago” would do. The Hindus and Buddhists got that right at least. Anyway, if you use that excuse, all that sin stuff must be misunderstandings also. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/232 "2018-09-25T22:26:09Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > If, as has been suggested elsewhere, the deity is omnipotent, doing stuff is a bit of a challenge: in order to exert power, some other bit of power must be ceded. Hence, the deity must use its omniscient cunning to overcome its own omnipotence. Things may not be so straightforward for a superbeing. Your idea and my idea of the word ‘omnipotent’ apparently mean very different things. My idea of the word is that it means ‘omnipotent’. > [@eschereal](#): > > The language of a deity is almost certainly different from the language of mortals. The anointed ones had to figure out how to express what they heard from the holy voice. Translation errors are inevitable, even in the very first draft. Later scribes had to adjust the holy writ in order for it to make sense in their language and culture. And subsequent translations had to make additional accomodations, _ad infinitum_. It would have helped if the deity was sufficiently omnipotent as to be able to manage not to mumble. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/233 "2018-09-25T22:34:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The anointed ones had to figure out how to express what they heard from the holy voice. Translation errors are inevitable, even in the very first draft. Later scribes had to adjust the holy writ in order for it to make sense in their language and culture. And subsequent translations had to make additional accomodations, ad infinitum. So, you’re not following the word of God, you’re following the word of men, writing things that you know is incorrect, that they then ‘adjust’ depending on the whims of the day? Hmmmmm. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/234 "2018-09-25T22:42:29Z")
I think I missed a part of this thread. Did someone explain why we are suppose to accept the bible as proof of miracles yet we can’t evaluate the claims in the book for validity? The whole thread seems to be focusing on what an existing believer views as credible, wasn’t the point to establish it was credible for us non-believers? Perhaps cliff notes on what is allegory and what is infallible or some numerologist mapping? Or is it a concept like the trinity where three beings are one, thus monotheistic and not polytheistic but hard to explain why? As a non-theist I have no reason to doubt that believers believe, as they are…believers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/235 "2018-09-26T02:32:48Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > So, you’re not following the word of God, you’re following the word of men, writing things that you know is incorrect, that they then ‘adjust’ depending on the whims of the day? > > Hmmmmm. Better than your typical prophet, who interprets the word of God to mean the suckers ^h^h^h believers should send him money or else stop doing things he finds icky. Or both. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/236 "2018-09-27T04:26:24Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Every single person on the planet believes in gravity. [This guy](https://youtu.be/XU-eoPUTTvA?t=1m50s) doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/237 "2018-09-27T05:34:58Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Every single person on the planet believes in gravity. There is no gravity. The world sucks. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/238 "2018-09-27T05:48:10Z")
What if I believe Gravity is a [fictitious force](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-a-fictitious-force/)? Am I to be burned at the stake or am I allowed to just start my own sect? If it involves much more pain than say…a comfy chair I am uhhh…I am _“asking for a friend”_ ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/239 "2018-09-27T14:10:09Z")
Speaking as an atheist… If I saw something amazing that no one could explain, you’d still have to convince me that it had a supernatural cause. Then convince me that the cause was instigated by a supernatural creature. Then convince me that there is only one such supernatural creature (or that you have correctly identified it amongst all the possible creatures) and you have accurately communicated with it to determine what it wants me to do. Then convince me that doing what this creature wants is the same thing as joining your religion. Do all that and maybe I’ll join your religion. Or maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/240 "2018-09-28T01:04:27Z")
Faith (belief) is non-rational. Believers do not arrive at their faith through careful thought. It is a _feeling_, often established through indoctrination from infancy (“_suffer the children to come unto me_,” the messiah is quoted as having said). You will simply not be _convinced_ into believing, at least by facts. In much the same way, it is profoundly difficult to convince a believer to let go of that feeling, just as it is difficult to convince an addict to put down the needle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=13)