# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/341 "2018-10-02T17:50:14Z")
The difference is like a very amateurish meshing of two very different deities. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/342 "2018-10-02T17:53:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It confuses me why some of ya’ll are trying to answer “when has God changed his mind?” with “the bible is factually inconsistent.” You do realize that the one isn’t the answer to the other, right? > > In my opinion the most blatant example of the biblical God changing his perspective on morality is that God used to be hella murder happy, and considered murder to be the correct punishment for all manner of infractions, notably including being an unfaithful child. Unless _the entirety of modern christianity are apostates_, God has changed his moral stance on child care and the murdering thereof. > > Unfaithful/disobendient children? [To murder, or not to murder?](https://www.openbible.info/topics/killing_children) God seems to have mellowed out and utterly reversed his morality in his old age. Just because a punishment may be just, that doesn’t mean it should always (or ever) be applied. Sometimes mercy is a better way. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/343 "2018-10-02T17:54:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The difference is like a very amateurish meshing of two very different deities. Or our understanding of God was completely turned on its head when God actually became a man and lived with us. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/344 "2018-10-02T18:00:39Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Or our understanding of God was completely turned on its head when God actually became a man and lived with us. Zeus did it all the time without causing sea changes in that religion. BTW, if he is all that powerful, he wouldn’t have to go through all that convoluted and piss-poorly documented stuff to get ghis point across. edited to add: And it doesn’t explain the sudden change from KILLGOD to _lovegod_. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/345 "2018-10-02T18:02:45Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Just because a punishment may be just, that doesn’t mean it should always (or ever) be applied. Sometimes mercy is a better way. Obviously murder is always just; that goes without saying. Jaywalking? Murder. Talking back? Murder. Sneezing? Murder. That eye-for-eye business is anarchist nonsense; under true godly justice if you take an eye we take your whole head. That’s how it’s done and nobody’s questioning that. But we weren’t talking about justice. We were talking about morality. Why have god’s morals changed so much that he no longer feels morally obligated to murder people merely because the laws he made up allow him to? Previously he thought murdering people was the moral thing to do. Now he seems not to, what with the fact there are christians who aren’t in jail. That’s a change in God’s personal morals - and of course this being _God_ his personal morals are the morals for us all. It _must_ be a change in his morality, elsewise when he was murdering people before it wasn’t a moral thing for him to do, or alternatively his current mercy is immorally lax. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/346 "2018-10-02T18:04:18Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Or our understanding of God was completely turned on its head when God actually became a man and lived with us. Are you saying that the numerous parts of the OT that presented God as a murderous rage beast are _non-canon?_ ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/347 "2018-10-02T18:31:43Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > {…} Scripture needs an interpreter. {…} You’d think an ‘god’ could write a book that didn’t need an interpreter…but you’d be wrong, apparently. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/348 "2018-10-02T18:43:15Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Not really. Should I? Maybe I should be more interested in those minute details. > > The bottom line is the books that make up the Bible were chosen and compiled by the Catholic Church during the first few centuries of its existence. > > If the Church thought that something in one or more of those books was contrary to the faith, then they would not have had it canonized. Which is always interesting to me - in the books they decided to leave out - including the ‘Gospel of Thomas’, etc. They picked and chose then only that which supported ‘their’ view of ‘the faith’ - and people continue to ‘pick and choose’ and ‘re-interpret’ to this day from that. Its a ridiculous endeavor when it gets right down to it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/349 "2018-10-02T18:45:41Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Just because a punishment may be just, that doesn’t mean it should always (or ever) be applied. Sometimes mercy is a better way. Unless you’re requiring a human sacrifice to ‘atone’ for ‘sins’ - then its ‘to the cross with him’. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/350 "2018-10-02T18:59:13Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Morality is universal and unchanging. Well, glad that’s cleared up. I’m curious, though - how do you reconcile this belief with the fact that people have disagreed on morality, both from place to place and at different times in history? Do you think that there’s a universal and unchanging morality out there, but we just don’t have access to what it actually is, so we’re left to bicker and argue? > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > This is not a shock, but is one of the biggest reasons why I am Catholic. Scripture needs an interpreter. It can’t be every man as his own Pope, or else you have theological chaos (i.e. Protestantism). What do you say to the guy who agrees but says that _his_ interpreter is his pastor in the Bible Church in a run-down suburban strip mall? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/351 "2018-10-02T19:05:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Zeus did it all the time without causing sea changes in that religion. I hate to break it to you, but Zeus did not exist in the flesh on earth at a point in time. The ancient Greek religion is one based on myth and implied truth. It is not based around a human person who lived in a particular place at a particular time as Christianity is. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > BTW, if he is all that powerful, he wouldn’t have to go through all that convoluted and piss-poorly documented stuff to get ghis point across. I don’t know what he would have to/choose to go through to get his point across. How can anyone say? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > edited to add: And it doesn’t explain the sudden change from KILLGOD to _lovegod_. I disagree with your use of the word “sudden”. By the very definition of “God”, he cannot change. Therefore, the thing that changed was human perception and understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/352 "2018-10-02T19:08:11Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but Zeus did not exist in the flesh on earth at a point in time. > The ancient Greek religion is one based on myth and implied truth. It is not based around a human person who lived in a particular place at a particular time as Christianity is. :dubious: Judaism predates Jesus. Unless your version of Christianity is purely philosophical, there’s a deity included and that deity existed for at least ~900 years before Jesus every showed up. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/353 "2018-10-02T19:08:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Obviously murder is always just; that goes without saying. Jaywalking? Murder. Talking back? Murder. Sneezing? Murder. That eye-for-eye business is anarchist nonsense; under true godly justice if you take an eye we take your whole head. That’s how it’s done and nobody’s questioning that. > > But we weren’t talking about justice. We were talking about morality. > > Why have god’s morals changed so much that he no longer feels morally obligated to murder people merely because the laws he made up allow him to? Previously he thought murdering people was the moral thing to do. Now he seems not to, what with the fact there are christians who aren’t in jail. That’s a change in God’s personal morals - and of course this being _God_ his personal morals are the morals for us all. > > It _must_ be a change in his morality, elsewise when he was murdering people before it wasn’t a moral thing for him to do, or alternatively his current mercy is immorally lax. This is nonsensical. There are so many false premises in there that I don’t even know where to begin. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/354 "2018-10-02T19:10:51Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Are you saying that the numerous parts of the OT that presented God as a murderous rage beast are _non-canon?_ I’m saying that the longer you are in a relationship with someone, interacting with them, learning from them, studying them, etc., the more understanding you will have about that person’s nature. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/355 "2018-10-02T19:12:08Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Unless you’re requiring a human sacrifice to ‘atone’ for ‘sins’ - then its ‘to the cross with him’. That God is a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/356 "2018-10-02T19:13:43Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I disagree with your use of the word “sudden”. By the very definition of “God”, he cannot change. Therefore, the thing that changed was human perception and understanding. Sooooo…He didn’t _drown_ all those supposedly guilty people and all those probably innocent animals. It was just an extreme baptism. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/357 "2018-10-02T19:14:39Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Well, glad that’s cleared up. I’m curious, though - how do you reconcile this belief with the fact that people have disagreed on morality, both from place to place and at different times in history? Do you think that there’s a universal and unchanging morality out there, but we just don’t have access to what it actually is, so we’re left to bicker and argue? I would say probably the same thing you would. People disagree because they are shaped by so many outside factors. I think that there is a universal and unchanging morality, and we do have access to it. It’s found in the teaching and tradition of the Catholic Church. > [@CurtC](#): > > What do you say to the guy who agrees but says that _his_ interpreter is his pastor in the Bible Church in a run-down suburban strip mall? I would ask him who made his pastor the interpreter. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/358 "2018-10-02T19:16:40Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > That God is a straw man. So, Jesus death upon the cross was not required? > [@Romans 5:6-8 NIV](#): > > 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us . > [@](#): > > **Catholic** > > Early speculation regarding the nature of the atonement was couched in terminology drawn from custom and law. William Kent notes that the Atonement “…is represented as the payment of a price, or a ransom, or as the offering of satisfaction for a debt. But we can never rest in these material figures as though they were literal and adequate. As both Abelard and Bernard remind us, the Atonement is …a sacrifice,… It was by this inward sacrifice of obedience unto death, …that Christ paid the debt to justice.”[41] > > ([Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity#Catholic)) ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/359 "2018-10-02T19:17:17Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > :dubious: Judaism predates Jesus. Unless your version of Christianity is purely philosophical, there’s a deity included and that deity existed for at least ~900 years before Jesus every showed up. I would quibble with this a little bit. The Judaism that we know of today in which there are no animal sacrifices involved did not begin until the temple was destroyed in AD 70. But regardless, Christianity teaches that Jesus is God, the same God from the OT (YHWH or “I am”). ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/360 "2018-10-02T19:19:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sooooo…He didn’t _drown_ all those supposedly guilty people and all those probably innocent animals. > It was just an extreme baptism. I don’t know if the flood was directly caused by God or not, or if it even happened the way it is described in Genesis. I know that the main purpose of the flood story is to teach about both God’s hatred for wickedness and his mercy to the righteous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=19)