# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/361 "2018-10-02T19:21:34Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So, Jesus death upon the cross was not required? > > . Required? Could God have saved humanity another way? I don’t know. I defer to Church teaching, which you seem to have already looked up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/362 "2018-10-02T19:22:14Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I don’t know if the flood was directly caused by God or not, or if it even happened the way it is described in Genesis. I know that the main purpose of the flood story is to teach about both God’s hatred for wickedness and his mercy to the righteous. Every single time you say stuff like this, you are saying “I believe the parts of the Bible that support what I already believe”. You and/or the sect you believe in are interpreting to suit your needs and wants. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/363 "2018-10-02T19:30:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Every single time you say stuff like this, you are saying “I believe the parts of the Bible that support what I already believe”. You and/or the sect you believe in are interpreting to suit your needs and wants. That’s one way to spin it. The other view is to recognize that a body of truth exists, and we’re doing our best to conform to it. If something in the Bible contradicts a known/revealed truth, then we must be reading the Bible wrong, because truth is absolute and cannot change. An example would be the Creation account. Our best scientific knowledge says that the world could not have been literally made according to the Genesis account. So, we have to read and interpret the text with that in mind. I don’t know if the Flood story was ever meant to be taken as historical fact, or if it was written in the style of legend or myth. That’s for Biblical scholars to decide. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/364 "2018-10-02T19:38:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Every single time you say stuff like this, you are saying “I believe the parts of the Bible that support what I already believe”. It’s not so much an issue of believing or not believing. It’s an issue of trying to find out how a particular passage of Scripture was meant to be understood. Not all of Scripture is meant to be “believed” in an historical sense, because it wasn’t written as historical fact. A lot of passages in Scripture are like myths that use narrative to point to a higher truth. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/365 "2018-10-02T19:39:14Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I would quibble with this a little bit. The Judaism that we know of today in which there are no animal sacrifices involved did not begin until the temple was destroyed in AD 70. What does that have to do with who the deity was? You may as well claim that Elvis didn’t exist until he banged his first groupie, or whatever. What, before that, he was just a fiction? > [@](#): > > But regardless, Christianity teaches that Jesus is God, the same God from the OT (YHWH or “I am”). So if I find some guy who claims that he’s Zeus, reincarnate, then that retroactively changes the last 3000 years and proves that the Greeks were on to something? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/366 "2018-10-02T19:40:50Z")
It is never “The Bible is wrong” when it contradicts reality-It is “We read the Bible wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/367 "2018-10-02T19:42:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What does that have to do with who the deity was? You may as well claim that Elvis didn’t exist until he banged his first groupie, or whatever. What, before that, he was just a fiction? The deity from the OT became a man, Jesus. The Jewish religion took the position that Jesus was not their deity. Those who believed that Jesus was the deity became known as Christians. Yes, it’s the same deity. Yes, our understanding of this deity greatly changed with the incarnation of Jesus. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So if I find some guy who claims that he’s Zeus, reincarnate, then that retroactively changes the last 3000 years and proves that the Greeks were on to something? :dubious: I don’t know what it would do. Probably it would get him locked up. But, I would ask him for some evidence that he is really Zeus. Where are the lightning bolts? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/368 "2018-10-02T19:46:33Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Required? Could God have saved humanity another way? I don’t know. I defer to Church teaching, which you seem to have already looked up. Seeems to be your stock answer when confronted with an inconvenient ‘truth’. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/369 "2018-10-02T19:47:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is never “The Bible is wrong” when it contradicts reality-It is “We read the Bible wrong”. The Bible can’t be “wrong”. That doesn’t really make sense. That’s like saying “my pants are wrong” even when they fit. They would be wrong if they were trying to be a shirt, but they are pants and were designed to be pants, and they serve the purpose of pants. The Bible is the Word of God, and it serves that purpose, and it’s never wrong _for that purpose_. What do you mean exactly when you say “contradicts reality”? But yes, I don’t see why we can’t be open to the fact that maybe we were reading something wrong if new indisputable facts come to light. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/370 "2018-10-02T19:49:14Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The deity from the OT became a man, Jesus. The Jewish religion took the position that Jesus was not their deity. Those who believed that Jesus was the deity became known as Christians. Yes, it’s the same deity. Yes, our understanding of this deity greatly changed with the incarnation of Jesus. > > I don’t know what it would do. Probably it would get him locked up. But, I would ask him for some evidence that he is really Zeus. Where are the lightning bolts? The son of Zeus would no more have lightning bolts than the son of your god would have lightning bolts. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/371 "2018-10-02T19:50:05Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Seeems to be your stock answer when confronted with an inconvenient ‘truth’. Inconvenient truth? Are you the arbiter of ‘truth’ as well? I fully admit that there are many things I don’t know, and I fully defer to the teaching and tradition of the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church teaches that Christ’s death on the cross was required in order to atone for sins, then I submit to that. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/372 "2018-10-02T19:50:15Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The deity from the OT became a man, Jesus. The Jewish religion took the position that Jesus was not their deity. Those who believed that Jesus was the deity became known as Christians. Yes, it’s the same deity. Yes, our understanding of this deity greatly changed with the incarnation of Jesus. And that deity is recorded as existing for at least 900 years before Jesus. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what it would do. Probably it would get him locked up. But, I would ask him for some evidence that he is really Zeus. Where are the lightning bolts? “His lightning lights up the world; the earth sees and trembles. The mountains melt like wax at the presence of the Lord- at the presence of the Lord of all the earth.” “Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them.” I don’t remember Jesus throwing around lightning bolts and destroying mountain, either. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/373 "2018-10-02T19:51:20Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The Bible can’t be “wrong”. That, folks, is what you call a “conversation stopper”. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/374 "2018-10-02T19:51:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The son of Zeus would no more have lightning bolts than the son of your god would have lightning bolts. He might have winged ankles though… ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/375 "2018-10-02T19:52:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That, folks, is what you call a “conversation stopper”. Did you read the rest of my post? I thought I was pretty clear what I meant by that statement. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/376 "2018-10-02T19:55:53Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And that deity is recorded as existing for at least 900 years before Jesus. Yeah, I was agreeing with you. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > “His lightning lights up the world; the earth sees and trembles. The mountains melt like wax at the presence of the Lord- at the presence of the Lord of all the earth.” > > “Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them.” > > I don’t remember Jesus throwing around lightning bolts and destroying mountain, either. So Jesus is captive to King David? I don’t remember Jesus doing that either. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/377 "2018-10-02T19:58:44Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Yeah, I was agreeing with you. Thank you. > [@](#): > > So Jesus is captive to King David? I don’t remember Jesus doing that either. God was captive to King David? I don’t recall that part either. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/378 "2018-10-02T20:02:00Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > God was captive to King David? I don’t recall that part either. I took your quotes from the Psalms as implying that because King David described God doing certain things (lightining, mountain melting, etc) or asked certain things of God (destroying his enemies with arrows, etc), that Jesus was then required to do those things. The fact that Jesus did not do those things then proves that he is not God. This implication, if it was one, is false because God does not live in a box built by King David. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/379 "2018-10-02T20:02:18Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Inconvenient truth? Are you the arbiter of ‘truth’ as well? I fully admit that there are many things I don’t know, and I fully defer to the teaching and tradition of the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church teaches that Christ’s death on the cross was required in order to atone for sins, then I submit to that. Inconvenient truth ?- It’s an established dogma of ALL christianity that “Christ died for your sins” -it doesn’t take much arbitration to state that as ‘truth’ in that context… So it appears that your faith is in the catholic church’s notion of morality (human sacrifice is good) vs God or some ‘greater’ truth as you consistently defer to them. You’d best hope they are right - which, of course,is the very definition of ‘faith’. In the end - I would posit that any organization that has, as its very cornerstone, the idea that ‘God required human sacrifice to forgive you’ as immoral at its very foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/380 "2018-10-02T20:05:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The Bible can’t be “wrong”. That doesn’t really make sense. That’s like saying “my pants are wrong” even when they fit. They would be wrong if they were trying to be a shirt, but they are pants and were designed to be pants, and they serve the purpose of pants. > > The Bible is the Word of God, and it serves that purpose, and it’s never wrong _for that purpose_. > > What do you mean exactly when you say “contradicts reality”? > > But yes, I don’t see why we can’t be open to the fact that maybe we were reading something wrong if new indisputable facts come to light. “If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.” “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery…” “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–with the wife of his neighbor–both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=20)