# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/381 "2018-10-02T20:10:24Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I took your quotes from the Psalms as implying that because King David described God doing certain things (lightining, mountain melting, etc) or asked certain things of God (destroying his enemies with arrows, etc), that Jesus was then required to do those things. The fact that Jesus did not do those things then proves that he is not God. This implication, if it was one, is false because God does not live in a box built by King David. Jeremiah “When He utters His voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, And He causes the clouds to ascend from the end of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain, And brings out the wind from His storehouses.” Exodus “All the people witnessed the thunder and lightning, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain [surrounded by] smoke. When the people saw [it] they trembled and stood at a distance.” Samuel ‘“Is it not the wheat harvest today? I will call to the LORD, that He may send thunder and rain Then you will know and see that your wickedness is great which you have done in the sight of the LORD by asking for yourselves a king.” So Samuel called to the LORD, and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel.’ Job ‘"After it, a voice roars; He thunders with His majestic voice, And He does not restrain the lightnings when His voice is heard. "God thunders with His voice wondrously, Doing great things which we cannot comprehend.’ The Bible is fairly consistent. It is not just Psalms. God throws around lightning a lot. He also has horns. It’s less remarked upon, but seems to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/382 "2018-10-02T20:17:02Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Inconvenient truth ?- It’s an established dogma of ALL christianity that “Christ died for your sins” -it doesn’t take much arbitration to state that as ‘truth’ in that context… I’m with you so far… > [@simster](#): > > So it appears that your faith is in the catholic church’s notion of morality (human sacrifice is good) vs God or some ‘greater’ truth as you consistently defer to them… Human sacrifice as a moral good does not logically follow. > [@simster](#): > > In the end - I would posit that any organization that has, as its very cornerstone, the idea that ‘God required human sacrifice to forgive you’ as immoral at its very foundation. An organization that had that idea as its cornerstone would be immoral, but you’re mischaracterizing the Catholic view of the atonement. It seems to me that you are coming at the crucifixion from a Calvinist perspective, and not a Catholic one. Unfortunately I am not in a position to find documents supporting my view at the moment, but I will come back to it. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/383 "2018-10-02T20:22:29Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The Bible is fairly consistent. It is not just Psalms. God throws around lightning a lot. Yes, Christians believe that God is powerful. There are many ways to use language to describe something or someone that is awe-inspiring and powerful, poetry being one. Thunderstorms are a pretty regular fact of life where I live. Are they directly caused by God? Are they indirectly caused by God through climate/weather patters/meteorological factors that he set in motion? Are they completely random? Interesting questions. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/384 "2018-10-02T20:23:16Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > This is nonsensical. There are so many false premises in there that I don’t even know where to begin. Why don’t you start by pointing out some of these false premises, so we can know whether you’re hallucinating them, or whether you’re merely ignorant of how mild hyperbole works? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/385 "2018-10-02T20:33:20Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m saying that the longer you are in a relationship with someone, interacting with them, learning from them, studying them, etc., the more understanding you will have about that person’s nature. Let’s clear up some facts here. The god of the OT is a murderous rage beast. The number of people he personally murders in the OT is, at a minimum, in the seven digits. Most of these murders are for the crime of offending him or otherwise pissing him off. Presuming the OT is not non-canon or otherwise fictional, then you have a god that actually did these things. It’s not a matter of understanding his nature, it’s a matter of the fact the dude is a murderous rage beast. The bible is extremely clear and explicit about what he does and why. If anyone is bold enough to claim that their god has never changed their morals, they must embrace one of the following scenarios: 1. Being a murderous rage beast has always been the moral approach, and modern christians are immoral for failing to murder people when they morally should. 2. Being an murderous rage beast was never moral, but God was like that due to temper issues. He then calmed down and stopped being the immoral demon he was. 3. Being an murderous rage beast was never moral, but God was like that due to temper issues - and he still is. Modern christians are apostates and will surely murder them at some point, along with everyone else. 4. The person making the bold claim is wrong, and morality changed between the barbaric OT and the less barbaric times nowadays where people don’t let barbaric religions dictate morality. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/386 "2018-10-02T20:38:41Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Human sacrifice as a moral good does not logically follow. “Christ died so that you could live (forever in heaven)” “Christ died for your sins” GOD required that Christ die - as a sacrifice - since GOD could have done it some other way - GOD required Christ’s Sacrifice - which was to die. Christ was a human. Seems to logically follow to me. If GOD wanted to be ‘moral’ - seems the ‘moral’ thing to do would have been to FORGIVE Adam and Eve at the outset - save us all alot of grief. But he’s a petty, vengeful god. If you can show me ANYWHERE that ‘Christ’s Sacrifice’ was not required as the ‘atonement’ - I’ll be happy to review it. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/387 "2018-10-02T20:50:46Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Yes, Christians believe that God is powerful. There are many ways to use language to describe something or someone that is awe-inspiring and powerful, poetry being one. > > Thunderstorms are a pretty regular fact of life where I live. Are they directly caused by God? Are they indirectly caused by God through climate/weather patters/meteorological factors that he set in motion? Are they completely random? Interesting questions. Zeus is similarly described. Calling him a thunder god comes from the descriptions used of him. Yahweh is never described as being that deity who multiplies fish, through the entire Old Testament. So if Jesus doesn’t do what God does and God doesn’t do what Jesus does, then why does Zeus reincarnate need to do what Zeus is described as doing? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/388 "2018-10-02T20:53:54Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So if Jesus doesn’t do what God does and God doesn’t do what Jesus does, then why does Zeus reincarnate need to do what Zeus is described as doing? Oh please, it was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/389 "2018-10-02T21:27:21Z")
> [@simster](#): > > GOD required that Christ die - as a sacrifice - since GOD could have done it some other way - GOD required Christ’s Sacrifice - which was to die. If God could have done it some other way, then that means that God did _not_ by definition require Christ’s sacrifice, but that Christ’s death was just one of multiple options. > [@simster](#): > > If GOD wanted to be ‘moral’ - seems the ‘moral’ thing to do would have been to FORGIVE Adam and Eve at the outset - save us all alot of grief. Why do you assume that Adam and Eve were not forgiven? > [@simster](#): > > But he’s a petty, vengeful god. The very definition of “God” means that he must be the perfection of good. Therefore, the god you describe is a straw man. > [@simster](#): > > If you can show me ANYWHERE that ‘Christ’s Sacrifice’ was not required as the ‘atonement’ - I’ll be happy to review it. I’ll work on this this evening. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/390 "2018-10-02T21:28:51Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Not all of Scripture is meant to be “believed” in an historical sense, because it wasn’t written as historical fact. Which was ever so much more convenient five hundred years ago when bibles numbers in the hundreds and most believers were lucky to even see one, much less any of its text. It is interesting to see how much the Catholic Church has changed. Lucrezia and Cesare Borgia were children of Pope Alexander VI. Popes Martin V, Julius II and Leo X, presumably amongst others, pursued martial enterprises (prosecuted wars and advocated the massacre of heretics). The popes of that era were somewhat theological, but they were first and foremost politicians. This is your Catholic Church. It is not altogether obvious that you can completely divorce what it is from its history. Then, of course, we have historian and philosopher Niccolo Machiavelli, in the era of the amoral Vatican, writing that lies are a tool of statecraft. The Pope, even now, is a statesman. How much can his truthfulness really be trusted? It is becoming more and more difficult to maintain respect for the reasonings of devout Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/391 "2018-10-02T21:33:43Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Which was ever so much more convenient five hundred years ago when bibles numbers in the hundreds and most believers were lucky to even see one, much less any of its text. Thank you! This weird obsession with the minutiae of the Bible makes no sense, especially since the vast majority of Christians throughout history had never even read one until very modern history. > [@eschereal](#): > > It is interesting to see how much the Catholic Church has changed. Lucrezia and Cesare Borgia were children of Pope Alexander VI. Popes Martin V, Julius II and Leo X, presumably amongst others, pursued martial enterprises (prosecuted wars and advocated the massacre of heretics). The popes of that era were somewhat theological, but they were first and foremost politicians. > > This is your Catholic Church. It is not altogether obvious that you can completely divorce what it is from its history. Then, of course, we have historian and philosopher Niccolo Machiavelli, in the era of the amoral Vatican, writing that lies are a tool of statecraft. > > The Pope, even now, is a statesman. How much can his truthfulness really be trusted? It is becoming more and more difficult to maintain respect for the reasonings of devout Catholics. With all of the corruption, self destructive actions, and gross immorality throughout its history, it’s amazing to me that the Catholic Church has not completely obliterated itself into nothing but a historical footnote. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/392 "2018-10-02T21:38:46Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > If God could have done it some other way, then that means that God did _not_ by definition require Christ’s sacrifice, but that Christ’s death was just one of multiple options. IF GOD had other options and CHOSE this one- he’s even worse. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Why do you assume that Adam and Eve were not forgiven? Why do you assume they were? Before Christ’s sacrifice, there was no path to forgiveness. OR - show where in the bible that Adam and Eve were specifically forgiven. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The very definition of “God” means that he must be the perfection of good. Therefore, the god you describe is a straw man. So, God can only be ‘perfect good’ - he can’t be also ‘bad’ ?? - how not very omnipotent of him. Seems you’re making up the qualities of GOD as you go along - and if he can only be ‘perfect good’ and we both (seem to) agree that requiring (or choosing) human sacrifice is BAD - then the GOD of the catholic/christian church is a non-starter - or atleast a charlatan. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’ll work on this this evening. I won’t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/393 "2018-10-02T21:38:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The very definition of “God” means that he must be the perfection of good. Says who? No seriously. Why does that word suddenly include “good”? What’s the source of this definition? Where does it get its authority? Who agreed to it? I mean, you’re making _arguments_ based on this definition, so it would probably a good thing if it weren’t pulled from your ass. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/394 "2018-10-02T21:44:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Says who? > > No seriously. Why does that word suddenly include “good”? What’s the source of this definition? Where does it get its authority? Who agreed to it? > > I mean, you’re making _arguments_ based on this definition, so it would probably a good thing if it weren’t pulled from your ass. Classical philosophy. It generally starts with Aristotle and builds from there. God is that which there can be no greater. Since good is greater than evil, God must be the perfection of good. When I say “God”, that’s what I mean. I recognize that it may not be what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/395 "2018-10-02T21:46:15Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Classical philosophy. It generally starts with Aristotle and builds from there. God is that which there can be no greater. Since good is greater than evil, God must be the perfection of good. When I say “God”, that’s what I mean. I recognize that it may not be what you mean. Then it cannot be the GOD of the bible to which you speak - and since this GOD of your crafting has allowed the Bible and all of its mess to corrupt its world -maybe its time for a flood - or fire - or something - to show us how loving he really is. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/396 "2018-10-02T21:53:52Z")
> [@simster](#): > > we both (seem to) agree that requiring (or choosing) human sacrifice is BAD - then the GOD of the catholic/christian church is a non-starter - or atleast a charlatan. You keep saying “human sacrifice”, but that’s not what was going on in Christ’s death. In pagan religions that practiced human sacrifice, the deity required the death of a human in order to appease him/her, or to assuage their anger or whatever. It’s clear teaching from the OT (1 Samuel) that God does not require or even take pleasure in animal sacrifices and it does nothing for him. Human sacrifice is also clearly forbidden in OT tradition. Jesus was not ceremonially executed on an altar by a priest in order to appease YHWH. God is not foaming at the mouth demanding that sin be repaid like some pagan deity. He wants humans to have “clean hands and a pure heart”. Jesus, being God himself, lived a perfect life without any sin. People chose to arrest and execute him, and his death was a good death because he submitted to it willingly and humbly even though it was unjust and evil. He submitted to this fate because he loves humanity, and the epitome of love is self sacrifice. Because God became man and displayed perfect love (which is self sacrifice), humanity was redeemed and we can have salvation. It has nothing to do with human sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/397 "2018-10-02T21:54:18Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Classical philosophy. It generally starts with Aristotle and builds from there. God is that which there can be no greater. Since good is greater than evil, God must be the perfection of good. When I say “God”, that’s what I mean. I recognize that it may not be what you mean. Is this from those fallacious arguments that tried to prove that God exists via logic alone? There is not and never can be any way to associate those philosophically instantiated "God"s with any religion’s belief system. Sure, the philosophers in question tried to make such associations, but they did so via pure sophistry and overt fallacy. Philosophical “God” is just a label assigned to the ‘biggest’ thing that happens to exist in a given category. The other properties of the thing can’t be concluded. Best thing? Probably a bagel. A very good bagel. Most awesome thing? Probably a bagel. An awesome bagel. Most ‘ultimate’ thing? Probably a bagel. A very ultimate bagel. By definition, any attempt to link the bagels from these arguments with any deity that anyone worships is guaranteed to be wrong. The arguments were _designed_ to make such links, mind you, but that’s because philosophers desperate to assume their conclusions aren’t that bothered by lying. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/398 "2018-10-02T21:59:35Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > With all of the corruption, self destructive actions, and gross immorality throughout its history, it’s amazing to me that the Catholic Church has not completely obliterated itself into nothing but a historical footnote. The Catholic Church has always been a political entity. A state. There has been plenty of corruption and immorality in Germany, Spain, Japan, England, and many other countries that have persisted for centuries on end. The difference between the Vatican and any random country on Earth is vanishing. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/399 "2018-10-02T22:04:08Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > It’s clear teaching from the OT (1 Samuel) that God does not require or even take pleasure in animal sacrifices and it does nothing for him. It does so do something for him. God likes animal sacrifices (as opposed to, say, vegetable sacrifices) for a very simple reason: he likes a good barbecue. And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour. Genesis 8:20-21 This suggests quite strongly that if God were to accept a human sacrifice, he’d have to be getting something out of that, too. Based on how Jesus was done in, the obvious conclusion would be that it played out that way to please a sadist of some kind. Was that sadist God himself? Maybe, maybe not, but if it was somebody else, then that somebody had a power that God did not, thus requiring the bribe. I’ve read an explanation where Satan was the one being satisfied; God was buying the souls of the damned from him by giving him a good show and then handing Jesus over. (Jesus then broke out of hell three days later using his divine power, because God’s a cheater.) Of course this sort of explanation grants Satan _ **way** _ more power and authority than many want to, but as explanations go it’s orders of magnitude better than most other explanations for one simple reason - the sacrifice actually _does something_, for a reason that actually makes some semblance of _sense_. Most strains of christianity don’t explain how killing one guy can possibly accomplish anything - who is it making happy? Who accepts the kind of coin the sacrifice is being paid in? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/400 "2018-10-02T22:04:32Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > You keep saying “human sacrifice”, but that’s not what was going on in Christ’s death. > > In pagan religions that practiced human sacrifice, the deity required the death of a human in order to appease him/her, or to assuage their anger or whatever. > > It’s clear teaching from the OT (1 Samuel) that God does not require or even take pleasure in animal sacrifices and it does nothing for him. Human sacrifice is also clearly forbidden in OT tradition. > > Jesus was not ceremonially executed on an altar by a priest in order to appease YHWH. > > God is not foaming at the mouth demanding that sin be repaid like some pagan deity. He wants humans to have “clean hands and a pure heart”. Jesus, being God himself, lived a perfect life without any sin. People chose to arrest and execute him, and his death was a good death because he submitted to it willingly and humbly even though it was unjust and evil. He submitted to this fate because he loves humanity, and the epitome of love is self sacrifice. > > Because God became man and displayed perfect love (which is self sacrifice), humanity was redeemed and we can have salvation. It has nothing to do with human sacrifice. Nice try - Was he a human? Was he sacrificed? > [@1 Corinthians 15:3-4](#): > > 15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received – that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures He didn’t “Live” for our sins - he fucking DIED for them. [Article here](https://bible.org/article/atonement-christ) goes further in making the argument surrounding atonement/sacrifice. > [@Hebrews:9:22](#): > > 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. > **[The Atonement of Christ | Bible.org](https://bible.org/article/atonement-christ)** > > At the very heart of the Christian system lies the all-important doctrine of the Atonement. > [@From link above](#): > > To atone for means to make amends. In the Bible atonement is associated with man’s sin. God commanded Israel to set aside one day each year, the tenth day of the seventh month, which He called “the day of atonement” (Leviticus 16:29-30; 23:27-28). The people were to bring a sin offering, an innocent animal sacrifice “whose blood was brought in to make atonement” (Leviticus 16:27). God had said, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul” (Leviticus 17:11) “. . . **and without shedding of blood is no remission** ” (Hebrews 9:22). The manner of death (on an alter or on a cross) means nothing as to it being a required sacrifice to atone for the sins. Sugar coat it all you want - claim it to be as beautiful as you want - but its still a human sacrifice to appease a god. Despicable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=21)