# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/501 "2018-10-04T16:16:38Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > To be clear, the question of if the trinity is to justify a polytheistic religion as monotheistic causes a crisis of faith even among some of the faithful. These terms, monotheistic and polytheistic are not Catholic terms. Maybe our religion is neither? Maybe there should be a new category. How the Catholic faith is labeled by those outside the faith is just not a huge deal. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Transubstantiation also commonly causes a crisis of faith around cannibalism. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The fact that actual clergy accepted these were common barriers is exactly why I am unwilling to take your claim it is official teachings without direct evidence to church statements that it is. That _what_ specifically is official teaching? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/502 "2018-10-04T16:19:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > To be clear, the question of if the trinity is to justify a polytheistic religion as monotheistic causes a crisis of faith even among some of the faithful. Consider, though, that you have characters like Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer and others: with such a rich pantheon, to describe christianity in its various forms as being not polytheistic is passing specious. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/503 "2018-10-04T16:22:30Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > These terms, monotheistic and polytheistic are not Catholic terms. Maybe our religion is neither? Maybe there should be a new category. How the Catholic faith is labeled by those outside the faith is just not a huge deal. Well you call me an Atheist, the meaning doesn’t change much despite the word games. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > That _what_ specifically is official teaching? Absolutely not that the day of Pentecost in 30 A.D. is known to be some set number of days after Jesus had risen. But if you are going to start to deny the Catechism of the Catholic Church maybe you can explain why you claim to be Catholic? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/504 "2018-10-04T16:25:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Consider, though, that you have characters like Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer and others: with such a rich pantheon, to describe christianity in its various forms as being not polytheistic is passing specious. That holds true for the Jewish faith too, but IMHO it was more about melding El with Yahweh and getting the Hebrews to drop their other gods as the god of Abraham suffers from crippling jealousy in those stories. I would agree that none of the religions based on the god of Abraham are strictly monotheist despite their claims. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/505 "2018-10-04T16:28:14Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Consider, though, that you have characters like Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer and others: with such a rich pantheon, to describe christianity in its various forms as being not polytheistic is passing specious. When have worshippers offered sacrifice to angels in Christianity? It is forbidden. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/506 "2018-10-04T16:32:45Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Absolutely not that the day of Pentecost in 30 A.D. is known to be some set number of days after Jesus had risen. But if you are going to start to deny the Catechism of the Catholic Church maybe you can explain why you claim to be Catholic? Gotcha. I don’t know if the exact numbers of days that passed between the resurrection and Pentecost is a dogma of the Church, it probably isn’t. I do know that Pentecost Sunday is celebrated 7 weeks (49 days) after Easter. It has been celebrated by Christians since the earliest times and is very likely a carryover from the Jewish Passover season, since they had a “Pentecost” celebration 50 days after Passover. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/507 "2018-10-04T16:38:15Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > When have worshippers offered sacrifice to angels in Christianity? It is forbidden. When did the definition of “god” become “Entity to which sacrifices are made”? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/508 "2018-10-04T16:40:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When did the definition of “god” become “Entity to which sacrifices are made”? My point is that angels have never been recognized as “gods” in Christianity, but are created beings. Certainly not in Catholicism anyhow. Maybe you can show me otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/509 "2018-10-04T16:43:20Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > My point is that angels have never been recognized as “gods” in Christianity, but are created beings. Certainly not in Catholicism anyhow. Maybe you can show me otherwise. Gods can be created beings in other pantheons. The problem here is that the sect you belong to wants to redefine certain words so that only their religion can qualify. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/510 "2018-10-04T16:44:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Gotcha. I don’t know if the exact numbers of days that passed between the resurrection and Pentecost is a dogma of the Church, it probably isn’t. I do know that Pentecost Sunday is celebrated 7 weeks (49 days) after Easter. It has been celebrated by Christians since the earliest times and is very likely a carryover from the Jewish Passover season, since they had a “Pentecost” celebration 50 days after Passover. The dates for those are quite clearly admitted to be not hard literal dates. [ > [@](#): > > In the Gospels, the precise details of the Easter narrative vary slightly, but none of these variances are critical to the main story. ]([Easter Sunday - Easter / Lent - Catholic Online](https://www.catholic.org/lent/easter.php)) My understanding from discussions with people who are far better educated than I and most who are believers is that it is fully admitted the periods of the year were selected out of convenience to coincide with other religions major holidays. The birth was the new year, and new hope and Easter generally was around spring celebrations to also relate to the rebirth of the world. I haven’t personally ever heard these individuals claim these were actual dates. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/511 "2018-10-04T16:47:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Gods can be created beings in other pantheons. The problem here is that the sect you belong to wants to redefine certain words so that only their religion can qualify. Qualify for what? You can call an angel a “god” if you want. It doesn’t bother me. I do know that in the Catholic faith, only the triune God (the creator) may be worshipped. In order to be “worshipping” something or someone, sacrifice must be involved. Therefore, sacrificing to angels as through they were God is forbidden. You can call them “gods” if you want, but they are not worthy of worship, so it’s just confusing terminology. Much simpler to just call them angels. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/512 "2018-10-04T16:49:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The dates for those are quite clearly admitted to be not hard literal dates. > > [URL=“[Easter Sunday - Easter / Lent - Catholic Online](https://www.catholic.org/lent/easter.php)”] > > My understanding from discussions with people who are far better educated than I and most who are believers is that it is fully admitted the periods of the year were selected out of convenience to coincide with other religions major holidays. The birth was the new year, and new hope and Easter generally was around spring celebrations to also relate to the rebirth of the world. > > I haven’t personally ever heard these individuals claim these were actual dates. That sounds very reasonable and makes perfect sense. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/513 "2018-10-04T16:49:58Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > My point is that angels have never been recognized as “gods” in Christianity, but are created beings. Certainly not in Catholicism anyhow. Maybe you can show me otherwise. That is still just word games, they are super natural entities that one either has to fear or prostrate to. The holy spirit is a better example. I in general do not have issues with Catholics but groups like Missionariarum a Caritate which glorify the suffering of children and the innocent as a way to bring them closer to Jesus even if unwilling I do have a problem with. I guess if you don’t believe that your god is omnipotent or omniscient the story of Fallen angels is less problematic but as the claim is that he is omnipotent and omniscient the fact that one has to pray to the trinity doesn’t change the effect IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/514 "2018-10-04T16:51:20Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Qualify for what? You can call an angel a “god” if you want. It doesn’t bother me. > > I do know that in the Catholic faith, only the triune God (the creator) may be worshipped. In order to be “worshipping” something or someone, sacrifice must be involved. Therefore, sacrificing to angels as through they were God is forbidden. You can call them “gods” if you want, but they are not worthy of worship, so it’s just confusing terminology. Much simpler to just call them angels. Does one not have to worship and honor the holy spirit? I am pretty sure that is one of the unforgivable sins to deny it. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/515 "2018-10-04T16:52:20Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > one either has to fear or prostrate to. Hmm…my experience says it’s just the opposite. It seems like every time an angel appears to someone in Scripture, the angel tells them to get up and don’t be afriaid. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/516 "2018-10-04T16:53:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Does one not have to worship and honor the holy spirit? I am pretty sure that is one of the unforgivable sins to deny it. As I’m sure you know, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, so is therefore fully God. Yes, the Holy Spirit is to be worshipped. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/517 "2018-10-04T16:56:34Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > As I’m sure you know, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, so is therefore fully God. Yes, the Holy Spirit is to be worshipped. And lots of people view the trinity as a way to not violate the OT’s claim of monotheism while adding new actors. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/518 "2018-10-04T16:57:49Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Hmm…my experience says it’s just the opposite. It seems like every time an angel appears to someone in Scripture, the angel tells them to get up and don’t be afriaid. Including Satan? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/519 "2018-10-04T17:03:44Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And lots of people view the trinity as a way to not violate the OT’s claim of monotheism while adding new actors. The Trinity is the best explanation we have as to how God can be simultaneously 3 and 1. The term “monotheism” is a modern descriptive term. It’s not found in Scripture or Tradition. If Christianity needs to dispense with the Trinity in order to be considered “monotheistic”, then to hell with monotheism. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/520 "2018-10-04T17:05:07Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Including Satan? Did Lucifer/Satan ever appear to a human in Scripture? I don’t believe he did, unless you count him with Adam and Eve in the form of a snake. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=27)