# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/41 "2018-09-20T20:13:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Define “institutional integrity” in a way that isn’t just taking certain traits of your sect and calling it that. Continuous existence in the same tangible, continuously identifiable form. People have been able to point to a building and say “there’s the Catholic Church” since the 1st century. People have been able to point to a guy and say “there’s an ordained Catholic bishop” since the 1st century. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/42 "2018-09-20T20:13:39Z")
Non-Christian miracles: > **[Sai Baba of Shirdi | Miracles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_Baba_of_Shirdi#Miracles)** > > Sai Baba's followers claim that he performed miracles such as bilocation, levitation, mind-reading, materialisation, exorcisms, entering a state of Samādhi at will, lighting lamps with water, curing the incurably sick, and appearing beaten when another was beaten. During Darshan (sacred sighting) he appeared to people in the form of Sri Rama, Krishna, Vithoba, Shiva and other gods depending on the faith of devotees. > According to his followers, he appeared to them in their dreams and gave them ad... > **[Ganesha drinking milk miracle](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle)** > > The Ganesha drinking milk miracle was a phenomenon which occurred on 21 September 1995, in which statues of the Hindu deity Ganesha were thought to be drinking milk offerings. > The news spread very quickly in various Indian and American cities, as Indians everywhere tried to "feed" idols of Ganesha with milk and spread the news through telephones and word of mouth, attracting significant attention in the Indian media. Scientists have described the incident as occurring through capillary action.... > **[Apollonius of Tyana | Miracles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana#Miracles)** > > Philostratus implies on one occasion that Apollonius had extra-sensory perception (Book VIII, Chapter XXVI). When emperor Domitian was murdered on 18 September 96 AD, Apollonius was said to have witnessed the event in Ephesus "about midday" on the day it happened in Rome, and told those present "Take heart, gentlemen, for the tyrant has been slain this day ...". Both Philostratus and renowned historian Cassius Dio report this incident, probably on the basis of an oral tradition. Both state th > **[Pythia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia)** > > Pythia (/ˈpɪθiə/; Ancient Greek: Πυθία \[pyːˈtʰíaː\]) was the name of the high priestess of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. She specifically served as its oracle and was known as the Oracle of Delphi. Her title was also historically glossed in English as the Pythoness. > The name Pythia is derived from Pytho, which in myth was the original name of Delphi. Etymologically, the Greeks derived this place name from the verb πύθειν (púthein) "to rot", which refers to the sickly sweet smell from the decomp... [http://www.einterface.net/gamini/buddhist.html](http://www.einterface.net/gamini/buddhist.html) > **[Miracle in Traditional Religion](https://www.academia.edu/459694/Miracle_in_Traditional_Religion)** > > A longer version is available at: http://www.box.net/shared/ua564722rx > **[Splitting of the Moon](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon)** > > The splitting of the Moon (Arabic: انشقاق القمر) is a miracle in Muslim tradition attributed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad. It is derived from Surah Al-Qamar 54:1–2 and mentioned by Muslim traditions such as the asbāb al-nuzūl (context of revelation). > Early traditions supporting a literal interpretation are transmitted on the authority of companions of Muhammad such as ibn Abbas, Anas ibn Malik, Abdullah ibn Masud and others. According to the Indian Muslim scholar Abdullah Yusuf Ali, the Mo... > **[The conquistadors encounters with giants](https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/ancient-mysteries/the-conquistadors-encounters-with-giants/)** > > \\ > \ **Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/43 "2018-09-20T20:15:02Z") > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Hinduism > Zorastrianism > Judaism > Jainism > Confucionism > Buddhism > Taoism > Shintoism Yes these are ancient religions, but there is no one institutional structure within them that matches the institutional integrity (or continuity if that makes more sense) of the Catholic Church. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/44 "2018-09-20T20:16:11Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Continuous existence in the same tangible, continuously identifiable form. > > People have been able to point to a building and say “there’s the Catholic Church” since the 1st century. People have been able to point to a guy and say “there’s an ordained Catholic bishop” since the 1st century. Who taught you this nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/45 "2018-09-20T20:17:47Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Institutional integrity? The Catholic Church? Seriously? Ever read a newspaper? I’m in Pennsylvania, where apparently you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting someone who’s been raped by a priest. THIS: Integrity: the state of being whole and undivided NOT THIS: Integrity: the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/46 "2018-09-20T20:19:14Z")
> **[Jamshedji Sorab Kukadaru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamshedji_Sorab_Kukadaru)** > > Jamshedji Sorab Kukadaru (26 May 1831 – 4 October 1900) was a Zoroastrian priest in Mumbai, India revered by Zoroastrians for a number of miracles he is believed to have performed. He was well known by his contemporaries for his simple lifestyle and asceticism, as well as his unflinching adherence to priestly purity rules. Most of his life is said to have been spent in prayer. > Kukadaru was also an astrologer of some repute. He was renowned for his spirituality, particularly his healing and di... > **[Meherji Rana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meherji_Rana)** > > The first Dastur Meherji Rana, sometimes known as Mayyaji Rana, was a spiritual leader of the Parsi community in India during the sixteenth century. He was seen by the Parsi community as someone with “vast knowledge and spiritual powers”. > Dastur Meherji was born to Rana Jesung into a priestly family at Navsari, in 1514. During that time, India was under the rule of the Mughals. According to one school of thought, Dastur Meherji was a disciple of the mystic saint, Dastur Azar Kayvan, who lived in... ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/47 "2018-09-20T20:19:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who taught you this nonsense? ??? Who taught you otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/48 "2018-09-20T20:23:45Z")
So, what hard evidence convinced you to become a Catholic? So far you’ve named attributes that many sects share, and “institutional integrity”…but you have yet to provide any evidence that supports your sect and your sect alone. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/49 "2018-09-20T20:24:48Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > THIS: > Integrity: the state of being whole and undivided > > NOT THIS: > Integrity: the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness Ahhh, so the Catholic Church, like the mafia, has integrity. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/50 "2018-09-20T20:25:32Z")
Institutional integrity? Catholics? What are you smoking? Like moving child molesting priests from parish to parish, and never involving the police in reported cases criminal sexual assault of children? Or every single piece of the hierarchy STILL solely bent on covering it up or praying it away. What the Catholics did to the First Nations people of my country is shocking and criminal by any measure. What they want is an apology. Nope. Never. Not ever gonna happen. I don’t think you understand what the word integrity means. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/51 "2018-09-20T20:29:07Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Anecdotally, I believe that if the Catholic Church was not of divine origin, it would have crumbled a long time ago. Hinduism Zorastrianism Judaism Jainism Confucionism Buddhism Taoism Shintoism All of these have been around a lot longer than your sect. Please point out the ones that have crumbled. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/52 "2018-09-20T20:32:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So, what hard evidence convinced you to become a Catholic? So far you’ve named attributes that many sects share, and “institutional integrity”…but you have yet to provide any evidence that supports your sect and your sect alone. I’m not sure what you mean by “hard evidence”, but my desire is to follow Jesus. Since I believe that Jesus is God, and since God is good, he deserves my worship and obedience. 1. Jesus told his disciples in John 6 that his flesh is true food and his blood is true drink. Whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood will live forever. 2. Jesus told Peter in Matthew 16 that he would be the “rock” on which the Church would be built, and that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church. 3. Jesus instituted the mass at his last supper with his disciples in which he gives us his flesh and blood to eat under the appearance of bread and wine. Given these events from the Gospels, where else would I go but the Catholic Church? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/53 "2018-09-20T20:33:42Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I don’t think you understand what the word integrity means. Again I repeat: THIS: Integrity: the state of being whole and undivided NOT THIS: Integrity: the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/54 "2018-09-20T20:36:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Hinduism > Zorastrianism > Judaism > Jainism > Confucionism > Buddhism > Taoism > Shintoism > > All of these have been around a lot longer than your sect. > Please point out the ones that have crumbled. These are religions, not institutions. I am not referring to the Christian religion, I am referring to the Catholic Church as an organized, cohesive, tangible institution. I really don’t see how this is so hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/55 "2018-09-20T20:36:39Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Again I repeat: > > THIS: > Integrity: the state of being whole and undivided > > NOT THIS: > Integrity: the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness Why would the former draw you to worship that particular sect, and not the latter?? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/56 "2018-09-20T20:37:43Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > These are religions, not institutions. I am not referring to the Christian religion, I am referring to the Catholic Church as an organized, cohesive, tangible institution. > > I really don’t see how this is so hard to understand. Faith through institutionalism? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/57 "2018-09-20T20:42:30Z")
Please explain moving child molesting priests parish to parish for years, as it relates to moral uprightness. That behaviour, standard procedure in the Catholic Church for decades, is the OPPOSITE of moral uprightness. How is that NOT self evident? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/58 "2018-09-20T20:44:14Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I believe that Jesus really and truly rose from the dead. I believe this because I believe that the testimonies of those who witnessed it are credible. And you believe that the oral tradition that passed down those stories for up to hundreds of years before anyone bothered to write them down are 100% accurate to their origin? Are you familiar with the children’s game “telephone”? Why does no one ever remember the point of that game? Here’s a fun story: Elvis was fond of banana and peanut butter sandwiches. His mother insists she always made them with bacon. Elvis’ former personal chef, and Kevin Kern, public relations director for Elvis Presley Enterprises, both insist that while the man loved his bacon, there was _never_ any bacon on this particular sandwich. _We are talking about a man who lived concurrently with a lot of other people who are still alive, we have reports from people who actually knew the man and prepared the sandwich for him, **and they can’t even agree on a simple 3-4 ingredient sandwich**._ Think about that. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/59 "2018-09-20T20:45:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why would the former draw you to worship that particular sect, and not the latter?? It doesn’t. There are bad people in the Church, but there are also saints. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/60 "2018-09-20T20:46:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Faith through institutionalism? No, it was an anecdote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=4)