# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/581 "2018-10-05T17:38:55Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > begbert2, > > The thing is, sacrifice doesn’t ‘do anything’ for God. By God’s very definition, nothing can benefit or harm him. He is fully complete and content at all time. > > I would say that the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Christ was fully for our benefit as humanity. Because of our disobedience and obstinance, we need redemption. The fact that God, who had been disobeyed would literally become a human, live a human life just like us, suffer things that we suffer, and even die like we die, redeems us. It redeems everything, it makes creation whole or “good” again, as it was in Genesis. It gives us the opportunity to bring Creation back to where it was at the beginning, which is what the Church has been working on (with lots of missteps and failures) for 2,000 years. I’m not seeing how that ‘redemption’ business works from a mechanical standpoint. Heck, I’m not really sure what you mean by the term. By its straight definition, “redemption” means “the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment, or clearing a debt.” So that gives us two options - he’s returning something to us, or he’s clearing our debt. I’m not seeing how him getting meaty and then getting his meat killed accomplishes any of those ends. It’s not just that he could have cleared our slates without the meat; it’s that the meat itself doesn’t seem to help. If anything the fact that we killed his meaty butt would seem to be even _worse_ for our collective sin count. The things really pushing back against this whole ‘crucifixion = sacrifice’ story working are that the more powerful god is the more unnecessary it is (if he’s the one judging us he could just dismiss all charges with a wave of his hand) and the fact that sacrifice, itself, has _always_ been about a supplicant begging the favor of a deity by pleasing it with the act of the sacrifice itself. The supplicants are giving up something for the deity, and he either likes the gift for the gift’s sake or because “it’s the thought that counts”. But this only works if the supplicant is different from the deity, because if the supplicant is the same as the deity then there’s no gift being given at all, which means there’s no effect at all. That’s just how sacrifices work. The Jesus sacrifice story only works if there’s something that’s _not Jesus_ that he’s trying to gain the favor of. I’m _absolutely certain_ that the people who decided to describe Jesus’s execution as being (instead) a willing sacrifice were under the impression that Jesus was a separate person from God. I hold this opinion because I assume they knew how sacrifices work in practice, because they were happening all the time back then. The story later got twisted up by people who weren’t directly familiar with sacrifice and who wished to deify Jesus, but it doesn’t change the fact that if we’re to believe that sacrifices work, then they work for a well-known reason - pleasing the deity with the sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/582 "2018-10-05T17:40:24Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > From my Post #558: “Jesus Christ has two natures in perfect union, one human, one divine. The humanity of Jesus died on the cross. It is impossible for his divinity to die.” So his great sacrifice was to quit hobbling himself and become a god again. Not impressed. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/583 "2018-10-05T17:52:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So his great sacrifice was to quit hobbling himself and become a god again. > > Not impressed. Jesus still has his human nature. His human body resurrected. His human body is in heaven, and we consume his human body in the Eucharist (along with his divinity). Christ’s incarnation and death were _for humanity_. It did not benefit God, it benefits us. Our debt to God is paid. We could not pay the debt ourselves because of our limits as humans. That’s why God himself took on human flesh and did what we could not do. He lived a perfect life and willingly suffered even unto death. Could Jesus have lived a sinless life to the age of 80 and died peacefully in his sleep, and saved humanity that way? Maybe he could have, I don’t know. But humanity wanted to kill him, and succeeded, and he submitted to the punishment willingly even though it wasn’t deserved. We haven’t mentioned original sin, but that’s where this all comes from. With original sin, nature got skewed and our relationship with God was irreparably damaged. The damage done by original sin had to be fixed. We need to be brought back to the state we were in before the fall. It’s been happening little by little for 2,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/584 "2018-10-05T17:54:36Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Oh no? Then what did Jesus mean when he said “before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58)? Let’s look at the context a bit, shall we? > [@](#): > > John 8:48-59]48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?” > > 49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.” > > 52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?” > > 54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” > > 57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” > > 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. Reading the whole exchange, pretty much the only thing I can be absolutely certain of is that he _didn’t_ mean was that he’s God. He was very, very, very explicit that he and God are different people. Honestly I can’t see how anyone could honestly read this passage and say otherwise - I can only assume that the person who cherry-picked that quote for you and told you it showed that Jesus=God was dishonest as fuck. As for what he actually meant, while reading it what leaps to mind is _typo_. (Or more realistically, transcription error.) It seriously looks like part of the sentence is missing; based on what he said the crowd wouldn’t stone him unless they were the sort to get infuriated by bad grammar. But if we were to pretend he really said that, I would suppose that he really meant “before Abraham was born, I _existed_!” - that is, that he was claiming to have existed as a spirit before being born and to have been watching Abraham from the heavens. (Which, as noted, is consistent with the overall christian mythology.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/585 "2018-10-05T17:58:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Jesus still has his human nature. His human body resurrected. His human body is in heaven, and we consume his human body in the Eucharist (along with his divinity). Per your cites that’s not the human body people are eating though - they’re eating a time-traveled corpse from the moment of his death. The human body in heaven is presumably sitting around watching Netflix. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Christ’s incarnation and death were _for humanity_. It did not benefit God, it benefits us. Our debt to God is paid. We could not pay the debt ourselves because of our limits as humans. That’s why God himself took on human flesh and did what we could not do. He lived a perfect life and willingly suffered even unto death. Could Jesus have lived a sinless life to the age of 80 and died peacefully in his sleep, and saved humanity that way? Maybe he could have, I don’t know. But humanity wanted to kill him, and succeeded, and he submitted to the punishment willingly even though it wasn’t deserved. Again, the person who you owe your money to can’t pay your debt for you; he can only absolve it. And Jesus _totally provoked_ humanity into killing him. The bible is explicit about that. He flipped tables, spoke out about the destruction of the temple, and generally disturbed the peace. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > We haven’t mentioned original sin, but that’s where this all comes from. With original sin, nature got skewed and our relationship with God was irreparably damaged. The damage done by original sin had to be fixed. We need to be brought back to the state we were in before the fall. It’s been happening little by little for 2,000 years. I thought you said Genesis was just a story. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/586 "2018-10-05T18:03:26Z")
If someone assigns a debt to me that I cannot possibly pay, then that person has/is the problem, not me, especially if it is a debt from an _imaginary_ ancestor. This crap about eating his divinity by eating his time-travelling body is nothing more than homeopathic magic, akin to eating a lion’s heart to become brave or ingesting rhino horn dust to become virile. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/587 "2018-10-05T19:01:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Let’s look at the context a bit, shall we? > > Reading the whole exchange, pretty much the only thing I can be absolutely certain of is that he _didn’t_ mean was that he’s God. He was very, very, very explicit that he and God are different people. Honestly I can’t see how anyone could honestly read this passage and say otherwise - I can only assume that the person who cherry-picked that quote for you and told you it showed that Jesus=God was dishonest as fuck. > > As for what he actually meant, while reading it what leaps to mind is _typo_. (Or more realistically, transcription error.) It seriously looks like part of the sentence is missing; based on what he said the crowd wouldn’t stone him unless they were the sort to get infuriated by bad grammar. > > But if we were to pretend he really said that, I would suppose that he really meant “before Abraham was born, I _existed_!” - that is, that he was claiming to have existed as a spirit before being born and to have been watching Abraham from the heavens. (Which, as noted, is consistent with the overall christian mythology.) I’m sorry that you are having such a hard time understanding the exchange, but Jesus’ audience knew _exactly_ what he meant, which is why they were about to stone him. The “I am” is a blindingly obvious reference to the story of Moses and the burning bush. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/588 "2018-10-05T19:04:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I thought you said Genesis was just a story. I never said it was “just a story”, those are your words. I said I did not know if the Genesis stories are mythical or historical fact. What I do know is that Genesis points to important theological truths such as the world being created by God, and the phenomenon of original sin. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/589 "2018-10-05T20:20:09Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m sorry that you are having such a hard time understanding the exchange, but Jesus’ audience knew _exactly_ what he meant, which is why they were about to stone him. > > The “I am” is a blindingly obvious reference to the story of Moses and the burning bush. Dude. I quoted the text. It’s right there. I’m quite confident you’re not going to fool _anybody_. As for blindingly obvious references, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me” is a blindingly obvious reference to the fact that Jesus utterly rejects the idea that’s he’s God, and it’s not the only one in there. I’m sorry that you’re so entrenched in your beliefs that you reject the words of Jesus. Heresy must be a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/590 "2018-10-05T20:31:26Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Dude. I quoted the text. It’s right there. I’m quite confident you’re not going to fool _anybody_. > > As for blindingly obvious references, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me” is a blindingly obvious reference to the fact that Jesus utterly rejects the idea that’s he’s God, and it’s not the only one in there. I’m sorry that you’re so entrenched in your beliefs that you reject the words of Jesus. Heresy must be a bitch. Your understanding of Scripture is obviously superior to 2,000 years of Catholic teaching :rolleyes:. Please, don the tiara now, Pope Begbert II. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/591 "2018-10-05T20:34:49Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Your understanding of Scripture is obviously superior to 2,000 years of Catholic teaching :rolleyes:. Please, don the tiara now, Pope Begbert II. Are you dissing those that aren’t Catholic for not automatically accepting Catholic teachings? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/592 "2018-10-05T20:41:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you dissing those that aren’t Catholic for not automatically accepting Catholic teachings? :eek: Is that what was going on? That wasn’t my intent. He shouldn’t have to accept Catholic teaching, but to quibble over a matter such as this is a bit ridiculous, considering even the vast majority of Protestants accept the Catholic interpretation that Jesus was claiming to be God in John 8:58. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/593 "2018-10-05T21:12:59Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Your understanding of Scripture is obviously superior to 2,000 years of Catholic teaching :rolleyes:. Please, don the tiara now, Pope Begbert II. [The catholic church hasn’t believed in the they’re-all-one-dude trinity for 2000 years. Sabellius was excommunicated for pushing the view in 220. It wasn’t until the Council of Nicea in 325 that this heresy became dominant in the church, and it took most of the rest of the century to become fully accepted.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity) Your religion, at its origin was very much a creation of mankind - specifically a bunch of scholars arguing it out. And this nonsense about how Jesus was wrong about whether he was God or not? Not in Christ’s church! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/594 "2018-10-05T21:27:58Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > As I said before, maybe God could have done it another way. He is God after all. The theme of sacrifice is all through the OT, so it only makes sense that in the end God would become the sacrifice himself. > > Did God _have to_ bring salvation through Christ’s death on the cross? I don’t know. > > Was it fitting that he did so? Yes. So you are saying that Jesus did not have to die. So that makes God a masochist or a sadist depending on the state of the Trinity at the moment. If God wants our sacrifice, it is to show love and or obedience. Why does God have to sacrifice to himself? Isn’t it standard dogma that salvation is only available through Christ? If so, then the sacrifice is required, and God can’t do it on his own and thus God is not God. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/595 "2018-10-05T21:40:30Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Yes I get what you’re saying, but I’m not sure it’s reasonable to expect written “contemporary recollections from independent sources” for an event that happened 2,000 years ago (an era of no tangible media to speak of) that inspired a, at the time, small religious sect. We have the oral Tradition of the Church, which dates back to the first Apostles, and we have the written Scriptural accounts. We have, in the tradition of the Church, written works from some of the first successors to the Apostles who learned directly from them. Oral tradition isn’t worth the paper it is written on. Especially since in those days it was acceptable to add all sorts larding to the story of a hero you want to promote. Just like Washington throwing the dollar across the Potomac. The best evidence against the Resurrection is that hardly anyone there gave a shit. Why marshal evidence against something that never happened at the time it didn’t happen and when no one claimed it did happen. Unless you have evidence that the resurrection story was current then. Josephus does not mention it, not in the authentic parts of Josephus. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/596 "2018-10-05T21:44:39Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > [The catholic church hasn’t believed in the they’re-all-one-dude trinity for 2000 years. Sabellius was excommunicated for pushing the view in 220. It wasn’t until the Council of Nicea in 325 that this heresy became dominant in the church, and it took most of the rest of the century to become fully accepted.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity) Um wut? Sabellianism, or (Modalism) is clearly distinct from Catholic Trinitarianism. Of course Sabellius would have been excommunicated for pushing a false (and anti-Nicean, even before Nicea! Imagine that!) view of the Trinity. Nicea affirmed what was already orthodox teaching. Nothing new came out of it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/597 "2018-10-05T21:47:36Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Um wut? Sabellianism, or (Modalism) is clearly distinct from Catholic Trinitarianism. Of course Sabellius would have been excommunicated for pushing a false (and anti-Nicean, even before Nicea! Imagine that!) view of the Trinity. Nicea affirmed what was already orthodox teaching. Nothing new came out of it. Revisionist history is like a warm blanket to hide under when the monsters of fact come. Read the cite. Catholicism didn’t spring fully-formed from Peter’s head; it was built from the ground up. By _way_ too many architects. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/598 "2018-10-05T21:47:51Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The best evidence against the Resurrection is that hardly anyone there gave a shit. Really? That’s pretty bad if it’s the best you’ve got. I would think the best evidence against the Resurrection is that **people don’t rise from the dead**. > [@Voyager](#): > > Why marshal evidence against something that never happened at the time it didn’t happen and when no one claimed it did happen. The Apostles did claim that it happened. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/599 "2018-10-05T21:49:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Read the cite. I will read the cite as soon as I am able. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/600 "2018-10-05T21:51:17Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I will read the cite as soon as I am able. Critiquing what it says would probably be more appropriate after you read it, btw. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=31)