# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/621 "2018-10-06T01:49:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As I asked before, why did he have too? An omnipotent God could do it without a sacrifice. Since there is nothing logically inconsistent in a god who can offer salvation without sacrifice, your god is not omnipotent and therefore not God. > Or else he’s a masochist. He is a masochist. Remember mankind is being punished for the original sin, none of them had anything to do with it. I am in favor of placing all Christian who have any ancestor who committed any crime in jail. Hey we’d be acting Godlike. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/622 "2018-10-06T01:59:22Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > But the Bible tells you what it’s like. And your church - you know, the people interpreting the Bible for you - spent centuries telling you what it’s like. What does your Bible and Church tell you it’s like? > > There are lots of things you can’t know directly, but you fervently believe it in anyway because that’s what the Bible/Church say you have to believe, no? I believe that hell exists. I don’t claim to know if Scripture’s descriptions of it are literal or figurative. Of course theologians have speculated over the centuries, but Catholic teaching doesn’t go very deep into the details of “what hell is like”, just that it’s real, and it’s not a nice place. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/623 "2018-10-06T02:35:10Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I believe that hell exists. I don’t claim to know if Scripture’s descriptions of it are literal or figurative. Of course theologians have speculated over the centuries, but Catholic teaching doesn’t go very deep into the details of “what hell is like”, just that it’s real, and it’s not a nice place. [Wrong again when it comes to what the Catholic Church teaches.](https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/hell) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/624 "2018-10-06T03:04:26Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Does it? How so? His suffering and death were real. The resurrection served multiple purposes. It both validated Jesus’ claims of divinity, and foreshadowed/made real the promise of our own resurrection at the last day. His suffering lasted a few hours. His so-called death counts for nothing because it only lasted a day and a half (maybe less, because we have no idea how long it was before he got up again). Death is final. _To die, to sleep, **no more** _. That is why death is a sacrifice: you lose _everything_. You lose your agency, your sensations, your pleasure, your pain. All of it. Take away the irrevocable permanence and it is simply not death, just a nap. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/625 "2018-10-06T03:27:39Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Does it? How so? His suffering and death were real. The resurrection served multiple purposes. It both validated Jesus’ claims of divinity, and foreshadowed/made real the promise of our own resurrection at the last day. Why would he need to ‘validate’ his claim of divinity? I thought the whole point was that you didn’t need ‘evidence’ or ‘proof’. ---
**Author:** ![Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reindeer_flotilla/32/3024_2.png) [@Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reindeer_Flotilla)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/626 "2018-10-06T06:58:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Clearly God can do what he wants. But we didn’t sacrifice - God or Jesus did. And why can’t God forgive us for our sakes without any sacrifice? Requiring sincere atonement, or even confession, that makes sense. But not his sacrifice. “I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him.” - Albert Einstein Thank you **EscAlaMike** , throughout this entire thread, for showing me the truth and beauty of this statement. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/627 "2018-10-06T12:08:59Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > We are all human, but still unique individuals, obviously. I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/628 "2018-10-06T13:10:21Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > you lose _everything_. You lose your agency, your sensations, your pleasure, your pain. All of it. Take away the irrevocable permanence and it is simply not death, just a nap. We believe in the immortality of the soul. I don’t know what sensations the soul may be able to experience after death. We believe in a final resurrection for all of humanity, so in a sense, yes death is “just a nap”. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/629 "2018-10-06T13:15:54Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Why would he need to ‘validate’ his claim of divinity? > > I thought the whole point was that you didn’t need ‘evidence’ or ‘proof’. Then you clearly missed the point. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, then he was either a charlatan or clinically insane, and Christians are a sorry lot indeed. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/630 "2018-10-06T13:20:20Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Does it? How so? His suffering and death were real. The resurrection served multiple purposes. It both validated Jesus’ claims of divinity, and foreshadowed/made real the promise of our own resurrection at the last day. ‘Jesus’ wasn’t divine - you keep saying he was ‘human’ - therefore the only thing his resurection would ‘prove’ is that GOD is divine. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/631 "2018-10-06T13:52:03Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Then you clearly missed the point. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, then he was either a charlatan or clinically insane, and Christians are a sorry lot indeed. Uh, okay. But, like I keep saying, magic _doesn’t really prove anything,_ according to the Bible: the unimpressed pharaoh responds to a miracle after miracle by calling in wise men and sorcerers, the magicians of Egypt, who promptly follow suit in like manner with their enchantments; and Deuteronomy 13 takes pains to establish that one shouldn’t hearken unto the words of a prophet or wonder worker, no matter that the sign or wonder comes to pass. If —as you say — we could write the guy off as a charlatan or insane _minus_ this or that feat, then I see no reason not to _still_ write him off. (You know, so long as we’re still saying he’s big on the Old Testament: if some guy comes along tomorrow and does magic and replies to my mention of the OT by saying “well, maybe that’s all just a pack of lies,” then _he’s_ got a case to make; but what’s Jesus got?) ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/632 "2018-10-06T14:05:49Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Then you clearly missed the point. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, then he was either a charlatan or clinically insane, and Christians are a sorry lot indeed. And? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/633 "2018-10-06T15:46:24Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > We believe in the immortality of the soul. I don’t know what sensations the soul may be able to experience after death. We believe in a final resurrection for all of humanity, so in a sense, yes death is “just a nap”. That belief still fails to explain what Jesus sacrificed. “Sacrifice” means to give something up. Something you want to keep. What did Jesus give up? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/634 "2018-10-06T17:11:14Z")
> [@simster](#): > > ‘Jesus’ wasn’t divine - you keep saying he was ‘human’ - therefore the only thing his resurection would ‘prove’ is that GOD is divine. Theologians call it the “hypostatic union”. Jesus is both human _and_ divine, simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/635 "2018-10-06T17:15:11Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > That belief still fails to explain what Jesus sacrificed. “Sacrifice” means to give something up. Something you want to keep. What did Jesus give up? His life. He didn’t want to die, but he submitted to it in obedience to the Father. That’s what the episode in the Garden of Gethsemane is about. “Let this cup pass from me…not my will but yours be done”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/636 "2018-10-06T17:46:41Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > His life. He didn’t want to die, but he submitted to it in obedience to the Father. That’s what the episode in the Garden of Gethsemane is about. “Let this cup pass from me…not my will but yours be done”. [Puts his lapsed catholic hat on:] Uh, he really did not die. [/Phlcho] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/637 "2018-10-06T17:54:20Z")
As I’m more on the agnostic side nowadays, I have to agree with Joseph Campbell, [you are confusing what it is symbolic with what is literal.](https://billmoyers.com/content/ep-2-joseph-campbell-and-the-power-of-myth-the-message-of-the-myth/) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/638 "2018-10-06T18:31:36Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > His life. He didn’t want to die, but he submitted to it in obedience to the Father. That’s what the episode in the Garden of Gethsemane is about. “Let this cup pass from me…not my will but yours be done”. Yet, he got it back. He even _knew_ he was going to get it back, so it was just an hour or two of discomfort, a day or so of oblivion, then he was back, acting like some kind of show off. In John, it even says he stuck around for a long while after coming back. What did he sacrifice? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/639 "2018-10-06T19:11:11Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > No, that’s not Catholicism. Sounds more like Lutheranism. Lutherans neither ran the Crusades nor the Inquisition. Not that Luther wasn’t an anti-semitic piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/640 "2018-10-06T19:14:39Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > He is a masochist. Remember mankind is being punished for the original sin, none of them had anything to do with it. I am in favor of placing all Christian who have any ancestor who committed any crime in jail. Hey we’d be acting Godlike. Excellent idea. Except that the ancestor knew the difference between right and wrong, which Adam and Eve did not. And the ancestor existed, which Adam and Eve did not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=33)