# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/641 "2018-10-06T19:20:28Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > Plausible scenario: > > 1. A miracle occurs. > 2. Only one person sees it. > 3. Everyone s/he tells doesn’t believe it. > > Not plausible scenario: > > 1. A miracle occurs. > 2. Hundreds of people see it. > 3. They don’t tell anybody else. > 4. None of them bothers to write down the fact that they saw it. > 5. Decades later, someone who wasn’t there writes down the fact that hundreds of people (who are now conveniently dead) saw it. > > Much more plausible scenario: > > 1. Something really dull and ordinary happens. > 2. People see it and aren’t impressed. > 3. Decades later, someone writes it down, embellishes it, falsely claims that hundreds of people saw it and were amazed by it. > 4. Centuries later, people insist that step 3 was “divinely inspired”, therefore the amazing thing actually happened. I would like to offer one more possibility, the one I think is most likely what happened. 1. Someone made up a story about a miracle and wrote it down. 2. Others believed the story, and made up more stories, some of which they also wrote down. 3. Repeat. (Mark-\>Mathew-\>Luke-\>John-\>Paul-\>Catholic Church, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/642 "2018-10-06T19:23:33Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Then you clearly missed the point. If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, then he was either a charlatan or clinically insane, and Christians are a sorry lot indeed. Now you’re getting it. But I disagree about the clinically insane part. After the cross, he was just plain dead. This is the Lord, liar or lunatic meme, which only works for those brought up in a way where calling Jesus anything but divine is an awful offense to society. If you did not grow up Christian, this has no power at all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/643 "2018-10-06T19:53:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Now you’re getting it. But I disagree about the clinically insane part. After the cross, he was just plain dead. > This is the Lord, liar or lunatic meme, which only works for those brought up in a way where calling Jesus anything but divine is an awful offense to society. > If you did not grow up Christian, this has no power at all. Just to pop in with a side detail that always jumps out at me: as presented in the text, Joseph doesn’t exactly react with wholehearted enthusiasm when he hears from Mary; but then he changes his mind, after an angel appears to him… …which, so far, sounds a lot like the liar/lord/lunatic set-up: either that story is false, or Joseph really did meet some kind of supernatural entity; or maybe the guy was just plain crazy. But if the story is true and he wasn’t crazy, then that leaves the possibility that he in fact got met an angelic messenger… …_in a dream._ That’s how the passage wraps up, that an angel visited Joseph (which at first sounds like a Very Big Deal) in a dream (which _isn’t_ a Very Big Deal); and that Joseph reacted as if this was a Very Big Deal; and this is presented as if we’re meant to gasp and respond, “oh, yes, of course, that’s a Very Big Deal.” Which means, I guess, that folks back then honestly believed meeting an angel in a dream was a Very Big Deal; again, it’s _not,_ but people who weren’t liars or lunatics seem to have jaw-droppingly flubbed that ‘lordliness’ call anyway. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/644 "2018-10-06T20:25:24Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Theologians call it the “hypostatic union”. Jesus is both human _and_ divine, simultaneously. If Divine - he could not die - not even for a moment. You cannot simultaneously be dead and not dead - you cannot be dead and resurrect ‘yourself’. What you keep doing is called ‘special pleading’ - it is not reasonable, it is not logical - it is, by definition, irrational. You’re welcome to your belief(s) - but do not dare to pass them off as reasonable or rational. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > His life. He didn’t want to die, but he submitted to it in obedience to the Father. That’s what the episode in the Garden of Gethsemane is about. “Let this cup pass from me…not my will but yours be done”. But he already knew he would be resurected - he didn’t give up his life, as he got it right back. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/645 "2018-10-06T21:40:37Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > His life. He didn’t want to die, but he submitted to it in obedience to the Father. That’s what the episode in the Garden of Gethsemane is about. “Let this cup pass from me…not my will but yours be done”. If I take a three-day jaunt to Albuquerque, do you think it proper that I tell people I live there? Unless you can come up with a verse that says basically “I give up my ability to ever take human form again”, then he gave up nothing. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/646 "2018-10-06T21:44:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Excellent idea. Except that the ancestor knew the difference between right and wrong, which Adam and Eve did not. And the ancestor existed, which Adam and Eve did not. I agree with you. I just think that if Christians say they believe original sin and that it is okay to punish people for something they didn’t do they should be okay being punished for real crimes of their ancestors. If it is good enough for God surly it should be okay for them. Don’t see the hypocrites lining up at the jails. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/647 "2018-10-08T02:18:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Just to pop in with a side detail that always jumps out at me: as presented in the text, Joseph doesn’t exactly react with wholehearted enthusiasm when he hears from Mary; but then he changes his mind, after an angel appears to him… > > …which, so far, sounds a lot like the liar/lord/lunatic set-up: either that story is false, or Joseph really did meet some kind of supernatural entity; or maybe the guy was just plain crazy. But if the story is true and he wasn’t crazy, then that leaves the possibility that he in fact got met an angelic messenger… Actually, I saw Chicago on Broadway today and Joseph reminds me of Amos. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/648 "2018-10-08T09:41:18Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Putting on socks and shooting someone in the head are also both human behaviors. Your point is? The problem is that it feels obvious to you that what kind of food you eat is unimportant while what kind of sex you have is important. However, there’s no objective reason why you should feel this way. Food _is_ important (you know the sentence “you’re what you eat”) and there’s no particular reason outside a specific cultural (and religious) background why dietetary rules should be deemed of little importance while sexual purity should be deemed of tremendous importance. There’s no objective reason why having sex deemed impure should be a serious issue while having food deemed impure wouldn’t be. You’re in fact conditioned by your cultural background into thinking that one is much more important than the other and expresses it as if it was self-evident when it’s not. Had you been brought up in a different culture, you’d equally feel that of course dietary rules are extremely important, who can’t see that what you eat matters a lot? And on top of it, you deity(ies) of choice would have clearly stated that it seriously mattered to him, in case it wouldn’t be self-evident enough. It doesn’t seem you realize that your feelings about what is an important rule and what isn’t is rooted into your cultural background and belief system. Could you try to forget for a moment about this cultural and religious background that led you to _feel_ it’s self-evident, and give a clearly objective reason why a god should obviously care about whether or not you had sex with another man, but obviously shouldn’t care about whether or not you had lobster? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/649 "2018-10-08T10:33:26Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The Jews or Romans could have easily produced the body to disprove the resurrection. That’s making several assumptions : -That the story about the resurrection was already told very early (as opposed to be made up a couple decades or more later) -That the Jews/Romans deemed it important enough to be worth disproving (and at the cost of unearthing a dead body which would probably have been seen by both as sacrilegous). -That they didn’t, in fact, disprove it. It’s not like we have (or should expect to have for such a remote time and place) much information about what the Romans and Jews thought and did about Jesus and the nascent cult about him. Plenty of people even nowadays keep believing things that have been clearly disproven. There’s no reason why fervent believers of the time would have been any different from fervent believers now (“This rotting body they showed? Of course, it wasn’t Jesus! That was just some other guy’s body! They’re lying to you to suppress the truth!”). You’re probably overestimating the importance of “first days Christianism” when you assume that it would have seriously bothered the authorities at the time, and probably overestimating the likelihood that any trace would remain if anything had been said or done about it. Even for people and events of obviously major significance for the whole empire, we have very few sources and evidences from this time, so for an obscure preacher in a remote province, just forget about it. > [@](#): > > The Apostles unanimously testified to the resurrection, and most suffered martyr’s deaths because of it. And the members of Heaven’s Gate commited mass suicide because they were convinced that they would be brought away by Jesus piloting a spaceship. People have been willing to die for a number of beliefs that you would deem false. That the apostoles did the same doesn’t prove the veracity of their claims (assuming, of course, that the stories about their deaths are true to begin with). > [@](#): > > Did Jesus’ disciples steal the body? The problem is that you cannot even assume that there was any missing body to begin with. Trying to find naturalistic explanations for an event when we don’t even know if it happened and how it happened is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/650 "2018-10-08T11:29:46Z")
Also, one quick Biblical point regarding that story where the body of Jesus is taken from the tomb: that comes up _in the text itself,_ doesn’t it? It gets mentioned and addressed and ends with a little note that the saying is commonly reported among the Jews unto this day, and then the narrative picks back up. And that story, according to the Bible, is that, what, the guards get asked to spread a tale about how the body was taken away by the disciples? And the guards, as far as I can tell, accept a bribe to do this? And the tale, unless I’m missing something, is still commonly reported when the Book of Matthew is being written? So, first: taking this seriously means _starting_ with the premise that the guards in question will totally accept bribes to lie about whether disciples of Jesus took the guy’s body? Because, if so, then _how awkward is that conversation?_ “I wonder if the disciples of Jesus took the guy’s body by bribing the guards?” “No WAY, man! Not THOSE guards, man! Not the BRIBABLE guards!” “Wow, you seem sure about this. Do you know their names?” “I do not; all I know about them is: THEY TOOK BRIBES!” “To lie about whether the disciples took the body?” “Yes, that’s the part I of course grant is true.” (And, second: if they took the bribe and spread the tale, such that it’s commonly reported decades later, then who spilled the beans about the bribe?) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/651 "2018-10-08T22:35:23Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And the members of Heaven’s Gate commited mass suicide because they were convinced that they would be brought away by Jesus piloting a spaceship. People have been willing to die for a number of beliefs that you would deem false. That the apostoles did the same doesn’t prove the veracity of their claims (assuming, of course, that the stories about their deaths are true to begin with). Very true. And a large number of those who died for their beliefs in the past 1800 years were aided in dying by Christians. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/652 "2018-10-09T01:09:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Very true. And a large number of those who died for their beliefs in the past 1800 years were aided in dying by Christians. Sure, plenty of people have died for their beliefs throughout history across all different religions. Whether their beliefs were right or wrong, they _believed_ them to be right. But how many people have died for a belief that they _knew_ to be false? That’s the argument I was making regarding the Apostles. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/653 "2018-10-09T01:15:17Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Sure, plenty of people have died for their beliefs throughout history across all different religions. Whether their beliefs were right or wrong, they _believed_ them to be right. > > But how many people have died for a belief that they _knew_ to be false? That’s the argument I was making regarding the Apostles. Please list for me how you think each of the Apostles died. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/654 "2018-10-09T01:22:05Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Sure, plenty of people have died for their beliefs throughout history across all different religions. Whether their beliefs were right or wrong, they _believed_ them to be right. > > But how many people have died for a belief that they _knew_ to be false? That’s the argument I was making regarding the Apostles. Argument from personal certainty > **[Alleged Certainty](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/cgi-bin/uy/webpages.cgi?%2Flogicalfallacies%2FAlleged-Certainty)** > > Asserting a conclusion without evidence or premises, through a statement that makes the conclusion appear certain when, in fact, it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/655 "2018-10-09T04:33:45Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Sure, plenty of people have died for their beliefs throughout history across all different religions. Whether their beliefs were right or wrong, they _believed_ them to be right. > > But how many people have died for a belief that they _knew_ to be false? That’s the argument I was making regarding the Apostles. Perhaps they thought he was the Messiah and King of Israel and a resurrection had nothing to do with it. Being resurrected was not really on the Messiah to-do list. ETA: Not to mention that thinking a belief is true doesn’t make it true. As has been so amply demonstrated. Joseph Smith died for his beliefs, after all, and so did all those Mormons who died on the trek to SLC. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/656 "2018-10-09T15:27:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Please list for me how you think each of the Apostles died. Before I go to the trouble of looking up the traditional accounts, may I ask why? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/657 "2018-10-09T15:32:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Perhaps they thought he was the Messiah and King of Israel and a resurrection had nothing to do with it. Being resurrected was not really on the Messiah to-do list. Sure, that’s possible. Except that they all preached about the resurrection as though it were fact… > [@Voyager](#): > > ETA: Not to mention that thinking a belief is true doesn’t make it true. As has been so amply demonstrated. Joseph Smith died for his beliefs, after all, and so did all those Mormons who died on the trek to SLC. This is obvious. Why say it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/658 "2018-10-09T15:39:29Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Before I go to the trouble of looking up the traditional accounts, may I ask why? Well, I looked up John the Apostle on wikipedia, and it said that [“Church Fathers identify him as John the Evangelist, John of Patmos, John the Elder and the Beloved Disciple, and testify that he outlived the remaining apostles and that he was the only one to die of natural causes.”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Apostle) So if that’s true, then there’s _one_ who maybe wouldn’t have had the problem you mention; and if it’s false, then I’d sure like to hear your insight on the matter. And with that as a running start, I’d like to hear what you think of the others. Like, if one of them was just out preaching the word and _some guy_ ran up and stabbed him, that’s not really the same as getting arrested and put on trial by the authorities, y’know? So since it’s your point, I kind of figured I’d ask you to, uh, make it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/659 "2018-10-09T15:54:10Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Sure, that’s possible. Except that they all preached about the resurrection as though it were fact… 1. They didn’t all preach about the resurrection. 2. Either those that _did_ preach about the resurrection couldn’t keep their stories straight, or those that reported about the preaching years after the fact heard from difference sources. They may have preached about the resurrection as if it were a fact…but it would better if they could have agreed what the facts were in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/660 "2018-10-09T16:01:44Z")
Although Christian tradition holds that all but John died as martyrs, the only death(not counting the two wildly different accounts of the death of Judas) that is recorded in the New Testament is that of James, son of Zebedee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=34)