# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/661 "2018-10-09T16:10:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, I looked up John the Apostle on wikipedia, and it said that [“Church Fathers identify him as John the Evangelist, John of Patmos, John the Elder and the Beloved Disciple, and testify that he outlived the remaining apostles and that he was the only one to die of natural causes.”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Apostle) So if that’s true, then there’s _one_ who maybe wouldn’t have had the problem you mention; and if it’s false, then I’d sure like to hear your insight on the matter. > > And with that as a running start, I’d like to hear what you think of the others. Like, if one of them was just out preaching the word and _some guy_ ran up and stabbed him, that’s not really the same as getting arrested and put on trial by the authorities, y’know? So since it’s your point, I kind of figured I’d ask you to, uh, make it. Yes, John was exiled to Patmos at one point, but he is the only one of the 11 that did not die a martyr, according to tradition. Per Google: Peter: crucified upside down in Rome in the 60s AD Andrew: crucified on an X-shaped cross in Patras James the Greater: executed by King Herod Philip: crucified upside-down in Hierapolis Bartholomew: flayed and beheaded in Armenia due to public outrage over his converting the Armenian king (Polymius) to Christianity Thomas: martyred in India Matthew: executed by sword, location disputed James the Less: possibly killed by Jews in Egypt Simon: conflicting traditions Jude Thaddeus: possibly clubbed to death ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/662 "2018-10-09T16:12:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Although Christian tradition holds that all but John died as martyrs, the only death(not counting the two wildly different accounts of the death of Judas) that is recorded in the New Testament is that of James, son of Zebedee. This is correct, though the martyrdom of St. Stephen is also recorded (he was one of the first ordained deacons in the Church). ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/663 "2018-10-09T16:16:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. They didn’t all preach about the resurrection. You know this? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Either those that _did_ preach about the resurrection couldn’t keep their stories straight, He was dead, now he is alive. That’s what matters. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > or those that reported about the preaching years after the fact heard from difference sources. I think this is a given. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > They may have preached about the resurrection as if it were a fact…but it would better if they could have agreed what the facts were in the first place. They certainly do agree on the relevant facts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/664 "2018-10-09T16:24:31Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > They certainly do agree on the relevant facts. Your “facts”(He died, he rose) is only an assumption unless it is based on _other_ facts-Your personal belief in the statement doesn’t make it fact. There are several definitions of the term “Begging The Question” but the boil down to this:Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself. Every time you declare that it doesn’t matter whether the accounts match up because the “fact” that he died then he rose still stands, you are Begging The Question. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/665 "2018-10-09T16:54:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your “facts”(He died, he rose) is only an assumption unless it is based on _other_ facts-Your personal belief in the statement doesn’t make it fact. There are several definitions of the term “Begging The Question” but the boil down to this:Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself. Every time you declare that it doesn’t matter whether the accounts match up because the “fact” that he died then he rose still stands, you are Begging The Question. I understand the fallacy. I don’t expect you to concede to my presuppositions regarding the resurrection. However, you seem to be repeatedly making the argument that the seemingly conflicting details in the accounts somehow makes the alleged event of the resurrection less credible. I don’t believe this is a valid argument for multiple reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/666 "2018-10-09T16:56:52Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I understand the fallacy. I don’t expect you to concede to my presuppositions regarding the resurrection. > > However, you seem to be repeatedly making the argument that the seemingly conflicting details in the accounts somehow makes the alleged event of the resurrection less credible. I don’t believe this is a valid argument for multiple reasons. Would you mind stating those reasons? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/667 "2018-10-09T17:06:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you mind stating those reasons? I don’t think there’s anything I haven’t stated already, but 1. The Church was already in existence celebrating mass and teaching the essential truths of the Gospel for over 30 years before the first Gospel account was written. Paul was already writing letters to the various Churches elaborating on the teachings of Jesus before the first Gospel account was written. The resurrection was _clearly_ an integral part of Christian theology. 2. There are 4 different Gospel authors. Each author chose to emphasize certain things about the life and person of Jesus. When you emphasize certain things, other things inevitable get de-emphasized. Each author most likely used different sources for their material, so that’s where the minor discrepancies in detail probably come from. Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus, and have from the very beginning. The assertion (from another poster) that the Apostles may not have even known about a resurrection is absurd and unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/668 "2018-10-09T17:11:22Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus, and have from the very beginning. The assertion (from another poster) that the Apostles may not have even known about a resurrection is absurd and unfounded. And about as unfounded as your claim that Christians believed in the resurrection from the very beginning. You have built a house of cards, with sand as your foundation. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/669 "2018-10-09T17:25:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And about as unfounded as your claim that Christians believed in the resurrection from the very beginning. You have built a house of cards, with sand as your foundation. :rolleyes: Okay. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/670 "2018-10-09T17:36:25Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything I haven’t stated already, but > > 1. The Church was already in existence celebrating mass and teaching the essential truths of the Gospel for over 30 years before the first Gospel account was written. Paul was already writing letters to the various Churches elaborating on the teachings of Jesus before the first Gospel account was written. The resurrection was _clearly_ an integral part of Christian theology. > > 2. There are 4 different Gospel authors. Each author chose to emphasize certain things about the life and person of Jesus. When you emphasize certain things, other things inevitable get de-emphasized. Each author most likely used different sources for their material, so that’s where the minor discrepancies in detail probably come from. > > Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus, and have from the very beginning. The assertion (from another poster) that the Apostles may not have even known about a resurrection is absurd and unfounded. The only source for your claim #1 is Catholic teaching itself - see ‘circular reasoning’ - other cults (Jehovah’s Witneeses, for one) make a similar claim that ‘their’ cult was in existence since the beginning and are therefore the correct one - they deny the Divinity of Christ (he was just a man) and the Trinity as pagan teachings of ‘Christendom’. Which one is correct? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/671 "2018-10-09T17:36:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Yes, John was exiled to Patmos at one point, but he is the only one of the 11 that did not die a martyr, according to tradition. > > Per Google: > > Peter: crucified upside down in Rome in the 60s AD > Andrew: crucified on an X-shaped cross in Patras > James the Greater: executed by King Herod > Philip: crucified upside-down in Hierapolis > Bartholomew: flayed and beheaded in Armenia due to public outrage over his converting the Armenian king (Polymius) to Christianity > Thomas: martyred in India > Matthew: executed by sword, location disputed > James the Less: possibly killed by Jews in Egypt > Simon: conflicting traditions > Jude Thaddeus: possibly clubbed to death Google isn’t a source-Google is a search engine without a filter for what is legit and what is absolute crap. Per Google: Kennedy was assassinated by Johnson The Earth is hollow and is the source of all UFO reports Pyramids were built using geysers Obama is a Communist atheist Elvis is still alive The world has ended 23 times since 1999 I was the worst moderator there ever was on the internet(o.k.-that one may be true) Can you do better than “Per Google”? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/672 "2018-10-09T17:53:35Z")
> [@simster](#): > > The only source for your claim #1 is Catholic teaching itself - see ‘circular reasoning’ - other cults (Jehovah’s Witneeses, for one) make a similar claim that ‘their’ cult was in existence since the beginning and are therefore the correct one - they deny the Divinity of Christ (he was just a man) and the Trinity as pagan teachings of ‘Christendom’. > > Which one is correct? I have made it abundantly clear which one I believe to be correct. Are you asking me to debunk the JW religion? Would it mean anything to you if I did? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/673 "2018-10-09T17:54:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you do better than “Per Google”? Unfortunately I can’t. The computer I use during the day has limited internet access. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/674 "2018-10-09T17:56:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I have made it abundantly clear which one I believe to be correct. Are you asking me to debunk the JW religion? Would it be too much to ask that you not present your personal beliefs as established fact, unless you have supporting evidence for back-up? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/675 "2018-10-09T17:58:30Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Unfortunately I can’t. The computer I use during the day has limited internet access. What does this even mean? You claim that Google is your source of information, but you can’t name the sites you found to support your point of view using Google? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/676 "2018-10-09T17:59:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would it be too much to ask that you not present your personal beliefs as established fact, unless you have supporting evidence for back-up? No it wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/677 "2018-10-09T18:02:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What does this even mean? You claim that Google is your source of information, but you can’t name the sites you found to support your point of view using Google? I can use Google to search, but then I am unable to follow most of the links that come up. Links came up from various sites, Wikipedia, different digital encyclopedias, as well as Church-related sites (Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic). Unfortunately, I am not able to follow the links to get the full write-up, I can only see the section of text or summary that comes up. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/678 "2018-10-09T18:04:36Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I have made it abundantly clear which one I believe to be correct. Are you asking me to debunk the JW religion? Would it mean anything to you if I did? I’m not asking you to debuk the JW (or any cult’s beliefs) - I am asking you for actual evidence that supports your claim that the Catholic religion was the one formed ‘before the gospel was written’. SO far - you only have Catholic dogma to back that up - and the example of the JW (and other cults) is that they make the ‘same’ claim - with the same lack of evidence and same level of honest belief. Given that - hwo would I determine which of those claims is more valid than the other? Why do you give such reverence to the Catholic claim above these others? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/679 "2018-10-09T18:13:31Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I can use Google to search, but then I am unable to follow most of the links that come up. Links came up from various sites, Wikipedia, different digital encyclopedias, as well as Church-related sites (Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic). Unfortunately, I am not able to follow the links to get the full write-up, I can only see the section of text or summary that comes up. So the only reason you think that those little pop-ups are reliable is because they tell you what you already believe? This can only lead others to question any other statements of “fact” you may assert. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/680 "2018-10-09T18:19:19Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I’m not asking you to debuk the JW (or any cult’s beliefs) - I am asking you for actual evidence that supports your claim that the Catholic religion was the one formed ‘before the gospel was written’. > > SO far - you only have Catholic dogma to back that up - and the example of the JW (and other cults) is that they make the ‘same’ claim - with the same lack of evidence and same level of honest belief. > > Given that - hwo would I determine which of those claims is more valid than the other? > > Why do you give such reverence to the Catholic claim above these others? Gotcha. There are many reasons. You can look at the writings of some of the earliest “Church Fathers” such as Polycarp, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement I, and many others, and they are clearly Catholic in their theology and in their views of the nature of the Church. The promises of Jesus pertaining to the Church only make sense in a Catholic paradigm. The definition and nature of Scripture only make sense in a Catholic paradigm. Catholic theology is eminently reasonable and consistent. There are too many contradictions in principle and in logic/reason within Protestantism (or any sect that emerged from Protestantism such as JW or Mormon). Based on my experience (which is all we have, really), if Jesus truly rose from the dead, then the Catholic Church is where he is found. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=35)