# St. Januarius, Miracles, and the Proof of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639 "2018-09-20T16:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/681 "2018-10-09T18:21:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So the only reason you think that those little pop-ups are reliable is because they tell you what you already believe? This can only lead others to question any other statements of “fact” you may assert. No, I don’t know that they are reliable. My resources are just limited at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/682 "2018-10-09T18:22:13Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > **Based on my experience (which is all we have, really)**, if Jesus truly rose from the dead, then the Catholic Church is where he is found. (bolding mine) Excuse me? Is this what you really meant to say? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/683 "2018-10-09T18:25:18Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > No, I don’t know that they are reliable. Then I am at a total loss as to why you posted them in the first place. Do you not care if your sources of information are reliable? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/684 "2018-10-09T18:28:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > (bolding mine) > Excuse me? Is this what you really meant to say? Maybe I should clarify. Within “_my_ experience” I am including the experience of others that I have gained through reading, listening, conversation, etc. Sorry for the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/685 "2018-10-09T18:29:05Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Gotcha. > > There are many reasons. You can look at the writings of some of the earliest “Church Fathers” such as Polycarp, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement I, and many others, and they are clearly Catholic in their theology and in their views of the nature of the Church. **The promises of Jesus pertaining to the Church only make sense in a Catholic paradigm. The definition and nature of Scripture only make sense in a Catholic paradigm.Catholic theology is eminently reasonable and consistent.** > > There are too many contradictions in principle and in logic/reason within Protestantism (or any sect that emerged from Protestantism such as JW or Mormon). > > Based on my experience (which is all we have, really), if Jesus truly rose from the dead, then the Catholic Church is where he is found. ‘reasons’ != evidence - other cults give ‘reasons’ as well. To the bolded section above (bolding mine) - this is hilarious given the number of things discussed that are neither in this very thread - and again, being a VERY subjective line of ‘reasoning’ - other cults make the same claim. So - while you can ‘believe’ it all day long - it is also not evidence of any kind. So - while you’ve convinced me why YOU believe what you believe - you have yet to show me any evidence for why I should accept your belief as being valid. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/686 "2018-10-09T18:29:39Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > … you seem to be repeatedly making the argument that the seemingly conflicting details in the accounts somehow makes the alleged event of the resurrection less credible.… The resurrection, in and of itself, strains credulity. Based on the available accounts, it would not quite have been impossible, but it represents a high bar. The inconsistencies in the accounts do the opposite of helping it clear the bar. The absence of any other reports or accounts damage the credibility more. At present, it sounds like a myth with no real support. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/687 "2018-10-09T18:35:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then I am at a total loss as to why you posted them in the first place. Do you not care if your sources of information are reliable? My claim that nearly all of the Apostles died as martyrs is not a novel claim, not is it remotely outlandish. I said “per Google”, you can take that how you want. If you are truly interested in how the Apostles died, you are in a better position to research that question than I am at the moment. What I posted from the google searches is in line with Church Tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/688 "2018-10-09T18:36:32Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Maybe I should clarify. Within “_my_ experience” I am including the experience of others that I have gained through reading, listening, conversation, etc. > > Sorry for the confusion. I am not the one who seems to be confused, because _I_ have much more than _your_ experiences to rely on…and I’m betting others can say the same. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/689 "2018-10-09T18:42:17Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > My claim that nearly all of the Apostles died as martyrs is not a novel claim, not is it remotely outlandish. I said “per Google”, you can take that how you want. If you are truly interested in how the Apostles died, you are in a better position to research that question than I am at the moment. What I posted from the google searches is in line with Church Tradition. Let me know when you have actual sources, because what you said is the approximate equivalent of claiming “The Library” as your cite. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/690 "2018-10-09T18:45:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am not the one who seems to be confused, because _I_ have much more than _your_ experiences to rely on…and I’m betting others can say the same. You have _more_ than my experiences to rely on? You have **your own** experiences to rely on. _Different_ from mine, to be sure, but can your experiences be quantified in terms of _more_ or _less_ than mine? And that doesn’t even address qualitative differences. Whose experiences are of a better quality? Who can say? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/691 "2018-10-09T18:50:52Z")
> [@simster](#): > > ‘reasons’ != evidence - other cults give ‘reasons’ as well. Agreed, I think the things I listed are evidence. > [@simster](#): > > To the bolded section above (bolding mine) - this is hilarious given the number of things discussed that are neither in this very thread - and again, being a VERY subjective line of ‘reasoning’ - other cults make the same claim. Do they? That is not my experience. In any case, if they do make those type of claims, they fail the tests of logic/reason and real world application. > [@simster](#): > > So - while you can ‘believe’ it all day long - it is also not evidence of any kind. Agreed. I think I have provided more evidence than just _my beliefs_. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/692 "2018-10-09T18:52:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let me know when you have actual sources, because what you said is the approximate equivalent of claiming “The Library” as your cite. You’re right. If you’re sincerely interested, I will see what evidence exists re: the death of the Apostles and post it when I get a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/693 "2018-10-09T18:57:04Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > You have _more_ than my experiences to rely on? > > You have **your own** experiences to rely on. _Different_ from mine, to be sure, but can your experiences be quantified in terms of _more_ or _less_ than mine? > > And that doesn’t even address qualitative differences. Whose experiences are of a better quality? Who can say? I have whatever experiences you relate here _and_ my own(and all the others I have encountered over the years, to boot). To claim that we have only _your_ experiences to draw upon is a silly statement to make, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/694 "2018-10-09T18:58:14Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > My claim that nearly all of the Apostles died as martyrs is not a novel claim, not is it remotely outlandish. I said “per Google”, you can take that how you want. If you are truly interested in how the Apostles died, you are in a better position to research that question than I am at the moment. What I posted from the google searches is in line with Church Tradition. John was jailed for giving Herod flack for taking his brother’s wife. James the brother of John is the only apostle whose martyrdom is recorded in the New Testament. Peter is was told he will die as a martyr and took steps that ensured that he fulfilled that prophecy. Paul and others claims like “For we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard” – Acts 4:20 Simply don’t tend to agree with the other evidence. Sure they obviously suffered due to their actions, but those actions were not typically _because_ they were Christian but because they were violating social norms _because_ they were Christian. That doesn’t make these actions OK, but similar to Sikhs being persecuted, beaten and killed today or the social pressure and hate directed at people who take a knee during the National Anthem or who choose to not recite the National Anthem. By your logic Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who paid dearly for not standing for the Anthem believes what he believes, and thus it must be true so should we assume that Muslim is the correct religion? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/695 "2018-10-09T19:00:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I have whatever experiences you relate here _and_ my own(and all the others I have encountered over the years, to boot). To claim that we have only _your_ experiences to draw upon is a silly statement to make, in my opinion. Oh come on, that’s not what I meant. I meant _our own experiences_ are all we have to rely on. Was my meaning not obvious? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/696 "2018-10-09T19:06:50Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Sure they obviously suffered due to their actions, but those actions were not typically _because_ they were Christian but because they were violating social norms _because_ they were Christian. That doesn’t make these actions OK, but similar to Sikhs being persecuted, beaten and killed today or the social pressure and hate directed at people who take a knee during the National Anthem or who choose to not recite the National Anthem. Yes, I can agree with this completely. However, my argument was not to state that their suffering proves anything about the validity of their claims. My argument was that their suffering is strong evidence to the fact that they _believed_ something. This argument of mine was to counter other posters who had asserted that the Apostles did not even know about or believe in a resurrection. I contended that that assertion is false. The fact that the Apostles were willing to suffer is evidence that they _believed_ what they were teaching. I also provided evidence that the resurrection was an integral part of Christian teaching from the beginning and was not invented after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/697 "2018-10-09T19:18:19Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Agreed, I think the things I listed are evidence. Nope - its all ‘beliefs’ all the way down - it is not evidence in and of itself - further, its ‘beliefs’ by other ‘believers’ - which is even more questionable when looking for the ‘truth’ of the matter. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Do they? That is not my experience. Many do make the claim. You realize that since Protestants ‘split’ from Catholicism, they can make the same claim going back to Peter and that the Catholic church is no longer the ‘true’ church? > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > In any case, if they do make those type of claims, they fail the tests of logic/reason and real world application. The irony - it burns - there is no logical or reasoned test that the Catholic church can pass either. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Agreed. I think I have provided more evidence than just _my beliefs_. You have provided no evidence - you have provided church teachings by other believers - this is not evidence. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/698 "2018-10-09T19:30:11Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Nope - its all ‘beliefs’ all the way down - it is not evidence in and of itself - further, its ‘beliefs’ by other ‘believers’ - which is even more questionable when looking for the ‘truth’ of the matter. Early churchmen elucidating theological and ecclesiastical principles that are consistent with today’s Catholic teaching is most certainly evidence that today’s Catholic Church is the same institution founded by Jesus. > [@simster](#): > > Many do make the claim. You realize that since Protestants ‘split’ from Catholicism, they can make the same claim going back to Peter and that the Catholic church is no longer the ‘true’ church?. As a former Protestant, I would dispute that most Protestants bother with these type of claims. However, Protestant ecclesiology is largely non-sensical and does not hold water. > [@simster](#): > > The irony - it burns - there is no logical or reasoned test that the Catholic church can pass either. Example? > [@simster](#): > > You have provided no evidence - you have provided church teachings by other believers - this is not evidence. What kind of evidence would you expect or need? We can trace the succession of Popes all the way back to Peter. We can show that the Church’s teachings regarding faith and morality have remained unchanged and consistent for 2,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/699 "2018-10-09T19:36:57Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Yes, I can agree with this completely. > > However, my argument was not to state that their suffering proves anything about the validity of their claims. My argument was that their suffering is strong evidence to the fact that they _believed_ something. > > This argument of mine was to counter other posters who had asserted that the Apostles did not even know about or believe in a resurrection. I contended that that assertion is false. The fact that the Apostles were willing to suffer is evidence that they _believed_ what they were teaching. I also provided evidence that the resurrection was an integral part of Christian teaching from the beginning and was not invented after the fact. It still isn’t proof of that, perhaps they just hated the Romans and their faith was used as a tool or their actions were misinterpretation by people who did believe. As stated before this is marginally a syllogism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639/700 "2018-10-09T19:40:19Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > What kind of evidence would you expect or need? We can trace the succession of Popes all the way back to Peter. We can show that the Church’s teachings regarding faith and morality have remained unchanged and consistent for 2,000 years. [Here is a lot of Popes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes) to see if your first claim is correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-januarius-miracles-and-the-proof-of-god/821639.md?page=36)