What if, instead of claiming to be Zeus, some guy made a point of saying, oh, gosh, I’m separate from Zeus, but I sometimes talk with him: there’s stuff that I will, and stuff that he wills, and, hey, not my will, but his will be done, y’know?
And let’s say that, instead of striking folks down with lightning, he was sometimes heard calling out to Zeus — remember Zeus? — not to strike them down. And let’s maybe also say that, when he was dying like an easily-confused blasphemer who was just plain wrong about various things, he cried out some kind of question to the effect of asking why the heck Zeus had forsaken him.
I could maybe find a guy who can do that right now. What would that prove?
Hmm, is that what he was saying? I assumed he was saying that we got to know God better after he came down to meet (0.0000001% of) us. Yes, I realize that makes no sense, but look at what I’m dealing with here. I think I can be excused of that didn’t clue me in to my interpretation of him being wrong (assuming it was).
And yeah, it makes little sense that God would suddenly know more about humanity after Jesus had his jaunt than he did before it - God is on record as paying quite a bit of attention to humanity’s behaviors prior to that point, and sometimes chucking meteors at people if the aforementioned behaviors annoyed him. That suggests he was at least paying a modicum of attention.
On further examination, you may be right. I thought he was saying:
“God was a murderous rage beast, until he got to know us.”
…but he may have intended…
“The humans who wrote the bible depicted God as a murderous rage beast until they got to know him.”
This stuff can’t be dustbinned fast enough for my liking.
I see in my absence there has been quite the atheist circle jerk going on, but I’m going to respond as promised to the issue of Christ’s atonement. There has been debate over this issue for centuries, and there has not been an official consensus that I can find as to the finer details and implications regarding Christ’s death. I did find a simple summary which was written for the purpose of contrasting the Catholic view with the Calvinist (Protestant) view…
“The Catholic conception of Christ’s Passion and Atonement is that Christ offered Himself up in self-sacrificial love to the Father, obedient even unto death, for the sins of all men. In His human will He offered to God a sacrifice of love that was more pleasing to the Father than the combined sins of all men of all time are displeasing to Him, and thus made satisfaction for our sins. The Father was never angry with Christ. Nor did the Father pour out His wrath on the Son. The Passion is Christ’s greatest act of love, the greatest revelation of the heart of God, and the glory of Christ.1 So when Christ was on the cross, God the Father was not pouring out His wrath on His Son; in Christ’s act of self-sacrifice in loving obedience to the Father, Christ was most lovable in the eyes of the Father. Rather, in Christ’s Passion we humans poured out our enmity with God on Christ, by what we did to Him in His body and soul. And He freely chose to let us do all this to Him. Deeper still, even our present sins contributed to His suffering, because He, in solidarity with us, grieved over all the sins of the world, not just the sins of the elect. Hence, St. Francis of Assisi said, “Nor did demons crucify Him; it is you who have crucified Him and crucify Him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.”2 The Passion is a revelation of the love of God, not the wrath of God.” - Bryan Cross
In other words you had to appease your god through human sacrifice so he would quit blaming you for your ancestors crimes? I’m still not sure how that is suppose to win converts.
So Christians who eat shellfish are disobedient and thus immoral? Got it.
Wow, that’s gobbledygook. Yesterday god said shellfish should not be eaten, today he says it’s okay, and that’s unchanging?
I did until I was 16 and learned how the Bible actually got written. (Hint, not by Moses.) But I’ve never been a Christian. In fact, Christian scum oppresed my ancestors for near 2,000 years.
Great. Now Make one against birth control that does not involve God’s purpose for sex.
Look up how the Catholic condemnation of condoms caused many in Africa to not have access to them, and thus be more at risk from AIDS. Maybe you are too young to be aware of this.
While your at it, look up some of the Renaissance popes - ones with mistresses and children.
I’m not a moral authority. But neither are those who claim moral authority from a god they can’t demonstrate. If population grows unchecked, we will run out of food and children will go hungry. And the Catholic church is for population growing unchecked.
When God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, it was not because of anger either. And that incident was thought to put an end to the need for human sacrifice. I don’t understand why it was brought back,. (Actually I do.)
Now, during Yum Kippur I asked God directly to forgive my sins and to write me into the book of life the next year. Since I’m still here 50 years later, it obviously worked. No intermediary was necessary. Now my god back then could pardon me directly, while your god can only pardon people through Jesus. Clearly my god is more powerful (being able to do something your God cannot) and thus your God is not the most powerful, and not a god at all.
I’m sure you can Google the location of your nearest rabbi and ask to convert.
Oh, why this dying for salvation stuff? The Messianic prophecies called for the messiah to be victorious, and to as King of Israel recreate the days of David’s glory. They did not call for the Messiah to not even last a week in the big time. So, after Jesus inconveniently died, his disciples at some point said “he meant to do that.”
Much more logical than your story.
You mention Adam and Eve. Now the Church no longer considers the creation story as being literally true, to their credit. You doubt the flood story, which is good. But do you consider Adam and Eve and the Garden historical? I believe the church is moving away from this.
If not, who exactly sinned creating a need for salvation? And if God thus made us inherently sinful, who is to blame but God?
If you do believe in the Adam and Eve story, some evidence for it, please.