# St. Louis fans you are not God's gift to baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649 "2006-07-23T00:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/41 "2006-07-24T13:51:39Z")
> [@Alma](#): > > My mistake, then. Still, it’s just anecdotal evidence to anecdotal evidence. My experience was apparently very different from yours, and neither of us have proved anything. I guess that’s why this is the pit and not GQ. I agree. I wouldn’t claim to have any empirical evidence to prove that St. Louis fans suck. In fact, some of my best friends are St. Louis fans. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/42 "2006-07-24T13:54:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Next up, “protection” and hitting sacrifice flies on purpose! 😃 Are you suggesting that batters hit sac flies by accident? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/43 "2006-07-24T14:41:27Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Are you suggesting that batters hit sac flies by accident? Yes. STATS, Inc. did a five-year study that ended in, I think, 1993. It showed that batters hit fly balls at the same rate in sacrifice situations as not. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/44 "2006-07-24T16:23:49Z")
So why does the St. Louis Walk of Fame have numerous inductees who were born in St. Louis and never left? I suppose that is something worth honoring. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/45 "2006-07-24T16:28:44Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > So why does the St. Louis Walk of Fame have numerous inductees who were born in St. Louis and never left? I suppose that is something worth honoring. Is that why they were noteworthy? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/46 "2006-07-24T17:00:17Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > But the underlying problem is that St. Louis has a real inferiority complex. They are a shitstain (a large one, to be sure) of a town in the midst of a bunch of cornfields, six hours from Chicago and five hours from Kansas City. A shitstain compared to Chicago or New York, definitely. Compared to Pittsburgh or Philly? Philly, OK you could make a case for Philly…but Pittsburgh? Sorry, Pittsburgh is an even bigger shitstain, a rust-colored one at that. And KC? Give me a break. The only way to be even more stranded in the armpit of the midwest other than being in St. Louis is to be in Kansas City. They get better snow storms, but that’s pretty much it. (And that’s just if you like snow!) It’s a point of pride for many St. Louisans, to be sure. But in my only-too-many years there, I would actually say the Blues fans have the clear, undisputed title for the most devoted fans. Devoted in the sense that a prion disease is devoted to destroying your brain tissue. The thing about the baseball fans is they’re always happy. I’d argue that they’re the most content fans in baseball. The Cards win, they’re happy they won. The Cards lose, they’re still happy they tried. It’s a midwestern thing. Besides, you can’t feel inferior if you don’t know any better. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/47 "2006-07-24T17:21:31Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Sorry, Pittsburgh is an even bigger shitstain, a rust-colored one at that. If you’re going to be a shit-stain, is there a better color to be? Whatever our status, somehow we manage to pull it off without the inferiority complex that pervades St. Louis. (Although I admit that I tend to annoy my St. Louis in-laws by frequently pointing out the fact that this or that star, athlete, author or what have you is from Pittsburgh. But that’s just me. To my knowledge, the city hasn’t concerned itself yet with a walk of fame.) > [@](#): > > And KC? Give me a break. The only way to be even more stranded in the armpit of the midwest other than being in St. Louis is to be in Kansas City. I went to college at Northeast Missouri State University. Don’t talk to me about being stranded in the midwest. I will say that Kansas City seemed to have the least knowledgeable baseball fans I’ve ever taken in a game with. This was most evident in the fact that each and every fly ball seemed to be greeted with oohs and aahs as if it were going to leave the park. Tip: If you’re confused, look at the outfielder. If he isn’t hauling ass back to the fence, or at least not looking unlike one about to catch a ball, it’s probably going to stay in the yard. In the 80’s, I used to contend that Pittsburgh had the most knowledgeable baseball fans. But that was because when I would travel up here to go to games, there would be about 5,000 people total in Three Rivers Stadium. You cut out alot of chaff when you cut out 30,000 people, so pound for pound, the level of knowledge was pretty high. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/48 "2006-07-24T17:29:44Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > If you’re going to be a shit-stain, is there a better color to be? Whatever our status, somehow we manage to pull it off without the inferiority complex that pervades St. Louis. (Although I admit that I tend to annoy my St. Louis in-laws by frequently pointing out the fact that this or that star, athlete, author or what have you is from Pittsburgh. But that’s just me. To my knowledge, the city hasn’t concerned itself yet with a walk of fame.) [St. Louis Walk of Shame](http://www.stlouiswalkoffame.org/history/) Well, I have to concede, if you’re a shitstain, rust-colored beats shit-colored. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/49 "2006-07-24T18:28:54Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > [St. Louis Walk of Shame](http://www.stlouiswalkoffame.org/history/) I see that Stan Musial is on their list. He is, of course, actually from the Pittsburgh area. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/50 "2006-07-24T20:29:39Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Next up, “protection” and hitting sacrifice flies on purpose! Are you talking about beaning the other team’s best hitter for revenge, or the notion that a good cleanup hitter is “protected” (they won’t be walked) with a good #5 hitter behind them? And maybe you wouldn’t hit a sac fly on purpose, but with runners at second and third and no outs you’d probably be a little more liberal with the power swing, keeping that in particular in mind, no? ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/51 "2006-07-24T20:50:41Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I see that Stan Musial is on their list. He is, of course, actually from the Pittsburgh area. 🙂 Maybe but T. S. Eliot was a Missouri redneck through and through. It obviously informed the vast majority of his work, such as _The Waste Land_, “The Hollow Men,” and “The Love Song of J. Francis Buck.” ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/52 "2006-07-24T20:52:04Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > You know, next time someone wants to talk about Cardinals fans, I might mention my experiences again! Or are you saying that one only gets to relate their relevant experiences once? Do you fail to see how silly it is to bring up the exact same incident about the guy yelling “Kendall sucks!” in every Cards fan thread until the end of time? That it maybe isn’t indicative of the fanbase as a whole? That after a while it makes you sound sad and petty? Buy hey, knock yourself out. Be warned however that I might mention my experiences again also, and mine might carry more weight, being as how there’s more than one [1] of them. > [@](#): > > As to tellling me I’m wrong - How could I be wrong about my experiences? You must be a really stupid fuck. I could have a limited sample, my experiences could be at odds with the way things are now, but it really isn’t the case that I could be wrong. Again, it’s your one [1] experience with overhearing your friends and coworkers talk about one [1] fight instead of the outcome of one [1] game which you find sufficient to condemn all Blues fans for eternity. But since you said in the other thread that you hadn’t even **been** to a Blues game, and other posters both there and here told you that your sweeping indictment of all Blues fans everywhere preferring fights to the game was wrong, I was shocked to see you post that same tired shit again. You’re wrong to do so. > [@](#): > > I’ll ask you - did you ever try to be a fan of a team in a different city while living in St. Louis? I think the hyperdefensiveness and insecurity of St. Louisans that caused them to not be able to tolerate having someone root for a different team is marvelously on display here. Maybe things are different than they were in the 70’s and 80’s. Yes, I was and still am a 49ers fan. And that was in the 70’s and 80’s. And I have no idea what your point is - I certainly wasn’t “not toerated” whatever that means. > [@](#): > > However, my “hatred” for St. Louis comes from having lived there for 17 years and experiencing all that is shitty about it. > > We moved from a nice suburban neighborhood in Pittsburgh to what should have been a similar suburban neighborhood in St. Louis in 1975. I remember incidents of shitheels passed out in our front yard. I found a used condom in the yard once. Someone left a beer in our mailbox. When I was 14, the 15 year old girl who lived next door told her 17-18 year old boyfriend that I used to annoy her (years before). He took it upon himself to charge at me right then. Fortunately, he was too drunk, so all I had to do was sidestep, and he went flying down about four steps into the driveway. Unfortunately, he was too drunk to really feel that, so he was still able to get up and push me around the yard for a bit. > > A bit later, someone pointed a gun at me after trying to cut me off in traffic, and another woman chased my car down, whipped my door open and kicked me in the thigh. However, I’ve told those stories previously on the SDMB, so I better not repeat myself, or **Dooku** will give me a serious chastisement! :eek: And here it is. I’m sorry about your bad experiences living in St. Louis, but it’s painfully clear to me that they have colored your perception of Cards and Blues fans. It’s a little sad that you’re still transferring those experiences onto a hatred of our fanbase, twenty years later. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/53 "2006-07-24T20:52:28Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > Are you talking about beaning the other team’s best hitter for revenge, or the notion that a good cleanup hitter is “protected” (they won’t be walked) with a good #5 hitter behind them? > > And maybe you wouldn’t hit a sac fly on purpose, but with runners at second and third and no outs you’d probably be a little more liberal with the power swing, keeping that in particular in mind, no? For the first question, the latter. For the second, no. I’ve seen it argued that more contact is made in sacrifice situations, but that increases both the rates of groundouts and flyouts while decreasing walks, strikeouts, and homeruns. But the only study shows that fly out rates are the same no matter the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/54 "2006-07-24T21:18:06Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > Do you fail to see how silly it is to bring up the exact same incident about the guy yelling “Kendall sucks!” in every Cards fan thread until the end of time? That it maybe isn’t indicative of the fanbase as a whole? That after a while it makes you sound sad and petty? I provided an anecdote that is supportive of the OPs argument. Maybe you should quit being a whiny pussy and suggest to Cardinals fans that they quit making asses out of themselves when they go to other stadiums. > [@](#): > > Buy hey, knock yourself out. Be warned however that I might mention my experiences again also, and mine might carry more weight, being as how there’s more than one [1] of them. > > Again, it’s your one [1] experience with overhearing your friends and coworkers talk about one [1] fight instead of the outcome of one [1] game which you find sufficient to condemn all Blues fans for eternity. What the fuck is with the [1] thing? I grew up in St. Louis. I had 17 years worth of experience to draw upon. I noticed that the common practice, across all my many experiences of people discussing Blues games, was to talk first and foremost about the fights in the stands, and how great they were. Now, you would be perfectly correct to say that I am [1] person, but you are moronic to suggest that I only had [1] conversation with people who had been to [1] Blues game in all my time in St. Louis. > [@](#): > > But since you said in the other thread that you hadn’t even **been** to a Blues game, and other posters both there and here told you that your sweeping indictment of all Blues fans everywhere preferring fights to the game was wrong, I was shocked to see you post that same tired shit again. You’re wrong to do so. As the woman (one of the oh so knowledgeable St. Louis fans) in the upper deck of Busch stadium insisted on yelling over and over and over again to Willie McGee at one of the last games I went to there, “You dumb as a box of rocks! You dumb as a box of rocks.” I said I never went to a _Blues versus Penguins_ game there. But the point is not so much the degree to which fighting actually occurred, but the degree to which the Blues fans that I knew focused on the fighting. “You dumb as a box of rocks!” I suppose you have as much chance of hearing that as Willie McGee did. > [@](#): > > And here it is. I’m sorry about your bad experiences living in St. Louis, but it’s painfully clear to me that they have colored your perception of Cards and Blues fans. > > It’s a little sad that you’re still transferring those experiences onto a hatred of our fanbase, twenty years later. But those experiences, and my impression of St. Louis, was shaped by interactions with fans as well as in general. Of course they “colored” my perception of the fans because they _were_ my experiences with the fans. You can’t unring the bell. My brothers having beer dumped on them and getting chased from the stadium was a part of that. I do go back every year, and while nobody has wanted to fight me about my team preference during the week or so per year that I am there, it doesn’t mean that it never happened before. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/55 "2006-07-24T21:29:00Z")
Actually, make that [2]: I always used to hear the same thing about Blues games. From newbies and fans alike, too (you’d expect it with newbies). “The best part was this one fight that broke out in the stands above us…” ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/56 "2006-07-24T21:32:05Z")
Sorry, incomplost. I mean, you expect it on the ice, but in the stands, too? Them’s some hard core fans, let me tell ya. Just the traffic getting to the Savvis Center… ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/57 "2006-07-24T21:50:53Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Oh fuck off. > > **Hentor** gave what seem to me to be very decent reasons for not liking Buck. > > He was a sports announcer, ferchissakes, not the Nobel Peace Prize winner or the man who discovered the vaccine for polio. Opinions about his aptitude at the job that made him rich and famous should not be stifled or held back just because he happens to be dead. > > Even his largely complimentary [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Buck) gives a couple of examples of less-than-exemplary performances:Given your apparent contempt for those who criticize the deceased, i guess you’d call me an asshole for saying that James Joyce sucked? > > Get over yourself. Right back at you, **mhendo** The topic of the thread was how St. Louis fans suck. We’re rude, crude drunks who live in a Midwestern shitstain and like to pick fights with fans of the other teams. And you know what? I figured **BobT** was entitled to his opinion. After all, half the fun of sports is bitching about the troglodytes who root for the other team. Then **Hentor** decided to come off the bench and sucker punch a dead man. Did Buck ever insult the opposing fans? Did Buck ever call on his audience to beat up the opposing fans? Nope. Jack Buck didn’t have anything to do with this thread. **Hentor** just decided to do a drive-by. That, to me, is being an asshole. You want to insult James Joyce? Fine, start a thread. Maybe I’ll join you, maybe I won’t. But I won’t come in to post that Eamon DeValera sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Pixiesnix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Pixiesnix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixiesnix)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/58 "2006-07-24T22:30:47Z")
**Hentor** , I’m sorry you had such a bad experience in St. Louis. However, I and many others have lived in or near the city for quite some time (13+ years for me) and have had quite a different experience. I’ve been to several games in Busch stadium and have never seen the behavior you described. Perhaps the fans have gotten better since your years in the city. If that’s the case, then it’s even more unfair to judge the fans of today by what fans in the past did. But since we’re talking about the rudeness of fans, I do recall a memorable fan at Busch stadium one game…a Mets fan. She was surrounded by Cards fans who cheered when the team did well, and were relatively quiet (save for normal audience chatter) the rest. But not this woman. She yelled, hollered, and pretty much made a fool of herself as she got increasingly drunk. I shot an annoyed look her way and she yelled something at me that was not at all kind. She almost ruined an otherwise enjoyable evening. But I don’t judge all Mets fans by that woman. In fact, I have no preconceived notions about what Mets fans are like. As for the city itself, I was actually held your opinion when my family moved here 13+ years ago. It was very different from the small Arkansas town I had come from. It was big, dirty, noisy, and the people weren’t nearly as polite as what I was accustomed to. But as the months went by, I dropped my small-town prejudices and opened myself up to people in and around the city who were polite, intelligent and kind. And I have admired the city ever since. Even as I’m writing this, I know nothing will change you or **Sequent** ’s minds. But I have to wonder…what is gained by hanging on to this hatred? And it is hatred, judging by the passion and persistence with which you denounce an entire populace. You’ve escaped that “shitstain” of a city…so why can’t you move on? ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/59 "2006-07-24T22:33:31Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > You want to insult James Joyce? Fine, start a thread. Maybe I’ll join you, maybe I won’t. But I won’t come in to post that Eamon DeValera sucked. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649/60 "2006-07-24T22:42:58Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Then **Hentor** decided to come off the bench and sucker punch a dead man. Did Buck ever insult the opposing fans? Did Buck ever call on his audience to beat up the opposing fans? > > Nope. Jack Buck didn’t have anything to do with this thread. **Hentor** just decided to do a drive-by. That, to me, is being an asshole. Still don’t know what Buck being dead has to do with anything, which was my main point. Who gives a shit if he’s dead? Would **Hentor** ’s alleged drive-by be more acceptable to you if Buck had been alive? Is Buck somehow immune from criticism just because he happens to be a rotting corpse rather than a doddering old man? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-louis-fans-you-are-not-gods-gift-to-baseball/365649.md?page=4)