# ST or Saint --Louis **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088 "2003-01-26T20:58:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/1 "2003-01-26T20:58:16Z")
A coworker of mine from St. Louis said that the “OFFICIAL” city name is ST not spelled out SAINT. I manage a database so you can see how I need all spelling standardized so the reports pull right. Anyway figuring she was wrong I went to some offical websites and it always says ST never SAINT. So was she right? ---
**Author:** ![maralinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@maralinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maralinn)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/2 "2003-01-26T21:13:03Z")
Well, the USGS seems to prefer the Saint: [http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/web\_query.GetDetail?tab=Y&id=765765](http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/web_query.GetDetail?tab=Y&id=765765) If I were you, I’d send e-mail to the St. Louis Public Library: [webref@slpl.lib.mo.us](mailto:webref@slpl.lib.mo.us) ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/3 "2003-01-26T21:14:41Z")
I never thought about it, but I’ve never seen the full word Saint spelled out in the city’s name. It was always St. (with a period.) There was never any confusion, though; it was never pronounced Street or State. I’ve been to StL several times to see their baseball team, the Cardinals. The ball team’s logo is a bird, but I believe Louis himself was a church-type Cardinal. ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/4 "2003-01-26T21:40:11Z")
This story strikes me as most likely an urban legend. What’s more, I don’t think it is a particularly well-known one. I am a 46-year-old lawyer who was born in St. Louis and I have lived virtually my whole life here. This is the first I have ever heard of “St.” being part of the “official” name of the city. While this in itself proves nothing, I think it is relevant that the Revised Code of the City of St. Louis is titled “The Revised Code of the City of Saint Louis”. Further, city documents make frequent references to “The Seal of the City of Saint Louis”. The city government used the form “St. Louis” at least as often as “Saint Louis”, however. My guess is that there never has been an “official determination”, or, if there was, it has long since been ignored and forgotten. People here use “Saint” and “St.” interchangeably. “St.” seems to be the commoner form, but that is a matter of convenience. In the 1960s the Board of Curators of the University of Missouri passed a resolution setting the name of the local campus as “The University of Missouri–St. Louis”, and this may have helped give rise to the legend. As for the real Saint Louis, he was Louis IX, King of France and a leader of the Third Crusade. The St. Louis Cardinals, odd to say, were originally the St. Louis Browns, not to be confused with the other St. Louis Browns, an American League team which moved to Baltimore. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/5 "2003-01-26T21:41:59Z")
Nope, Louis was a king of great skill and holiness – which is why the bridge in Thornton’ Wilder’s novel was named “San Luis Rey” after him. But your collent about the birds and the Catholic prelates reminds me of the old riddle from my childhood: Name two guys named Frank who played second base for Fordham U. baseball teams and went on to become Cardinals – the answer being Frankie Frisch and Francis, Cardinal Spellman. In alphabetization, St. is filed not between Ssssst and Sua Sponte but as though it were spelled out, between Sahara and Sainville. ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/6 "2003-01-26T22:10:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AskNott \* > \*\*I never thought about it, but I’ve never seen the full word Saint spelled out in the city’s name. It was always St. (with a period.) There was never any confusion, though; it was never pronounced Street or State. I’ve been to StL several times to see their baseball team, the Cardinals. The ball team’s logo is a bird, but I believe Louis himself was a church-type Cardinal. \*\* Louis himself was Louis IX, King of France. I’ve lived most of my life in St. Louis, and have always been under the impression that St. was an abbreviation, the whole name of the city is Saint Louis. I’ve seen it spelled both ways in various contexts, and when searching different “white pages” type sites, often have to experiment to find out which way it’s listed. Here’s the official website: [http://stlouis.missouri.org/index.html](http://stlouis.missouri.org/index.html) It’s mostly spelled St. Louis, but there’s no information about which one is the “official” spelling. On this part of the site, [http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/recorder/staff.html](http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/recorder/staff.html) it’s spelled “Saint” in all the addresses. And for what it’s worth, the Art Museum and the Symphony usually spell it out. In any event, my money is still on “st.” being an abbreviation. I think most St. Louisans would say the same. Oh, a quick look at the USPS website tells me they prefer that it be written “Saint Louis.” ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/7 "2003-01-26T22:14:01Z")
wow! Guess I should have previewed. Anyway, Polycarp is right about the alphabetization, and it’s true of St. Louis phone books, as well. It has never ocurred to me to look up “St. Louis Children’s Hospital,” for instance, in the ST section. It’s in the SA section, even though it’s spelled “St.” ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/8 "2003-01-26T22:45:26Z")
_hijack_ DID YOU KNOW: That if an abbreviation ends in a period, then the abbreviation ends in the same letter that the full word endswith. e.g. Doctor = Dr. But if the full word ends in a different letter to the abbreviation’s end, it has no period. e.g. Drive = Dr _end hijack_ ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/9 "2003-01-26T22:50:34Z")
Also of interest. Ok, that was a little bold. I should say “Oooh! Ooh! I have a story to tell! Listen to MEEEEEEEeeeeeee…” So, er, anyway. Saint Louis University is pretty rabid about _not_ being referred to as St. Louis University. That’s strictly verboten. Our ladies cross country team had to sort of lurk around when the athletic directors were near because they had sweatshirts made with the offending abbreviation. I blame Fr. Beyond-me… Tenebras ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/10 "2003-01-26T22:55:37Z")
I live in St. Louis County but work in the City. I can’t say I have ever seen the word spelled out “Saint” According to the [St. Louis City Charter](http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/charter/data/art01.htm): _The inhabitants of The City of St. Louis, as its limits now are or may hereafter be, shall be and continue a body corporate by name “The City of St. Louis,” and as such shall have perpetual succession, may have a corporate seal, and sue and be sued._ BTW The proper abbreviation should be St. not ST ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/11 "2003-01-26T23:07:55Z")
**GuanoLad** your name is apropos. The rule you quote is just that, guano. Every style manual I checked says a period goes at the end of an abbreviation. Period. Pun intended. ---
**Author:** ![Tradnor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cab0a1/32.png) [@Tradnor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tradnor)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/12 "2003-01-26T23:19:36Z")
Look at [this page](http://www.oed.com/public/guide/citing.htm) from the OED! It has “ed.” for “edition”, “Apr.” for “April”, “Mar.” for “March”, “Vol.” for “Volume”… Somebody should tell them to learn proper English, huh? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/13 "2003-01-26T23:50:35Z")
In Anaheim the street signs for State College Boulevard are displayed as “St College Bl”. I always tell people that the Angels play on Saint College. As for the Mound City (the nickname I use for St. Louis), always shows up as St. Louis (with the exception of the University). I always thought that one tipoff is that both the Cardinals and Billikens (and before them the Browns) use the interlocking S T L on baseball caps. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/14 "2003-01-27T00:03:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > \*\*_hijack_ > > DID YOU KNOW: > > That if an abbreviation ends in a period, then the abbreviation ends in the same letter that the full word endswith. > e.g. Doctor = Dr. > > But if the full word ends in a different letter to the abbreviation’s end, it has no period. > e.g. Drive = Dr > > _end hijack_ \*\* Where does this rule come from? It is not consistent with _The Chicago Manual of Style_, _Modern American Usage_ by Bryan Garner, or _Merriam-Webster’s Guide to Punctuation and Style_. I have never seen it in any other stylebook, or followed in American or British English. Some publishers (mostly British) follow the rule that a terminal period abbreviates letters omitted at a word’s end, but not from a word’s middle. For example, _The Economist_ abbreviates “Mister” as “Mr” and “Doctor” as “Dr”, without a terminal period. Likewise, “Department” is abbreviated as “Dep’t” rather than “Dept.” But “Drive” is still “Dr.”, with a terminal period. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/15 "2003-01-27T00:09:26Z")
I realize it is St. I just used the ST for effect. But this lady is a pain as if you put St. instead of spelling it out the reports don’t pull right. Interesting comments so far though. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/16 "2003-01-27T01:00:18Z")
There is a legal basis for the OP’s belief. A city’s “official” name is usually determined by reference to the legislation that establishes the city, or by the city charter or code. Those documents are fairly clear that the City’s “official” name is the “City of St. Louis,” and not “City of Saint Louis.” But many government departments use “Saint Louis” instead of “St. Louis.” The Missouri Constitution provides that “the city of St. Louis, as now existing, is recognized both as a city and as a county unless otherwise changed in accordance with the provisions of this constitution” (art. VI, sec. 31). See [http://www.moga.state.mo.us/const/A06031.HTM](http://www.moga.state.mo.us/const/A06031.HTM). The Constitution refers consisently to “St. Louis” and not “Saint Louis.” The Missouri Revised Statutes likewise refer consistently to “St. Louis” and not “Saint Louis.” See [http://www.moga.state.mo.us/homestat.asp](http://www.moga.state.mo.us/homestat.asp). (The single exception is the Saint Louis Zoo, whose name the statutes ordinarily spell out, with one exception–section 301.3045–where the catchline abbreviates the name but the text spells it out. But maybe the zoo is named after the saint rather than the city?) The City’s voters adopted its original municipal charter in 1914. The 1914 Charter provided in article I, “corporate name and powers,” that “the inhabitants of the City of St. Louis, as its limits now are or may hereafter be, shall be and continue a body corporate by name The City of St. Louis . . .” (art. I, sec. 1). See [http://stlouis.missouri.org/government/Charter/partI.html#I](http://stlouis.missouri.org/government/Charter/partI.html#I). The 1914 Charter refers consisently to “St. Louis” and not “Saint Louis.” The current charter carries this provision forward, and even places the name in quotation marks: “The inhabitants of The City of St. Louis, as its limits now are or may hereafter be, shall be and continue a body corporate by name ‘The City of St. Louis,’ . . .” (art. I, sec. 1). See [http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/charter/data/art01.htm](http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/charter/data/art01.htm). But the municipal code is the “Revised Code of the City of Saint Louis, 1994, Annotated,” and it refers to “the Charter of the City of Saint Louis, 1914, as amended to April 18, 1994” (sec. 1.01.010). See [http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/code/data/t0101.HTM](http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/code/data/t0101.HTM). The code is subordinate to the charter, though, so the fact that it uses the name’s spelled-out form does not override the charter provision adopting the abbreviated form. And even the seal for which the Revised Code provides (ch. 1.16) bears the legend, “THE COMMON SEAL OF THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.” ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/17 "2003-01-27T02:18:57Z")
My brother who writes for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch has told me in the past that the P-D’s style guide is “St. Louis” And they don’t even call SLU “Saint Louis”. It’s “St. Louis University”. ---
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/18 "2003-01-27T03:52:57Z")
I don’t understand what you people are arguing about. St. is just an abbreviation for Saint, nothing more or less. They mean the same thing. If you’re worried about alphabetization, then spell it out. If someone’s touchy about not wanting to see the abbreviation, they have too much time on their hands. Sheesh, next you’ll be wondering whether the mail you address to MO is really going to end up in Missouri, because MO isn’t the official name of the state. Now, if you want something to argue about, let’s talk about whether it’s MissourEE or MissourAH. (FWIW, I lived in Saint Louis for 15 years, and miss it much more than I thought I would). ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/19 "2003-01-27T04:04:13Z")
Well shucks. I read it in a proper style book someplace, but can’t remember where. Looks like it wasn’t true. Or maybe was for something specific. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/20 "2003-01-27T04:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by brianmelendez \* > \*\*Some publishers (mostly British) follow the rule that a terminal period abbreviates letters omitted at a word’s end, but not from a word’s middle. For example, _The Economist_ abbreviates “Mister” as “Mr” and “Doctor” as “Dr”, without a terminal period. Likewise, “Department” is abbreviated as “Dep’t” rather than “Dept.” But “Drive” is still “Dr.”, with a terminal period. \*\* This is what I mis-remembered. I wrote out my little hijack, then thought “wait, maybe I have it backwards” and checked the 'net to see what they said. And it appeared to agree with what I eventually posted. I’m a doofus. I DID have it backwards, and even then it was antiquated and provincial. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088.md?page=2)