# ST or Saint --Louis **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088 "2003-01-26T20:58:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/21 "2003-01-27T04:42:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > \*\* > I DID have it backwards, and even then it was antiquated and provincial. \*\* Well, according to [this site](http://www.bolton.ac.uk/webpublishing/guidelines/typographical.html), it is using Dr. Mr. etc. that is antiquated, so you are backwards again. Or still. It may still be provincial, though - the cite is a UK style guide. > [@](#): > > Many abbreviated status titles have traditionally used a full stop at the end, but this practice is gradually being dropped in favour of a simplified, cleaner look. This is a stylistic rather than a grammatical convention. For example: > … > Mr J Soap not Mr. J. Soap > Mrs B Lean not Mrs. B. Lean ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/22 "2003-01-27T05:27:34Z")
The fact that they can’t make up their mind is a sure sign that grammar and punctuation rules are fast becoming meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/23 "2003-01-27T13:01:54Z")
I maintain a database of state data that we report to the federal government. Among the items we report on each of our some 11,000 records are the county numbers. It so happens that we have two counties that are Saints. The state government has them alphabetized by usint “St.”, while the federal government alphabetizes using the spelled out “Saint”. As luck would have it, we have three counties that fall in between “Saint” and “St.” So the counties are in different order depending on if you order by the state convention or the federal convention. I’ve written code more times than I care to to convert the state county to the federal county for various applications, that little discontinuity about the Saints has really been a pain in the butt. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/24 "2003-01-27T13:02:53Z")
Mercy! Marxxx certainly touched a nerve. That’s a good-sized hubbub over a small style point. Maybe it was a nerve in the terminal digestive port. ---
**Author:** ![mrcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@mrcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrcrow)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/25 "2003-01-27T13:17:56Z")
St. seems to be an abbreviation for Saint? so when you see st louis you say saint louis not st louis!!! my little hometown has an abbreviated name but the real historical buffs prefer it to be called its correct name the name wont go on the bus destination roller fait accompli? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/26 "2003-01-27T13:36:02Z")
Incidentally, the St. Louis Cardinals baseball team may not have been named after either red-wearing archbishops OR birds; it is often claimed that the name originated from the red color of their uniforms. Nobody really knows for sure, though. ---
**Author:** ![critter42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@critter42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/critter42)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088/27 "2003-01-27T14:57:08Z")
Well, officially, at least, it’s a reference to the color of their uniform. From the history at the St. Louis Cardinals’ official website [here:](http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stl/history/stl_history_timeline.jsp?period=1) (Last paragraph - 1899) > [@](#): > > The Robison Brothers, Frank and Stanley, discarded the name of Browns, calling the St. Louis National Leaguers the Perfectos. The team was outfitted in red striped stockings and red-trimmed uniforms. When sportswriter Willie McHale, of the St. Louis Republic, heard a lady fan remark, “What a lovely shade of cardinal,” the new nickname was used in his column, and struck a chord with St. Louis fans. The team officially changed its name from the Perfectos to the Cardinals in 1900. The ballpark also discarded the old Sportsman’s Park name in favor of League Park. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-or-saint-louis/151088.md?page=1)