# St. Patrick's Day and Spring. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 19, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378 "2019-03-19T18:53:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/1 "2019-03-19T18:53:23Z")
Really almost a philosophical question. Or certainly a weather one. Is St. Patrick’s Day technically in Spring or Winter? It is always just before the vernal equinox. But it also is in March. And it is a very verdant, green warm holiday too, you have to admit. So which is it? :):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/2 "2019-03-19T19:18:27Z")
From a meteorological standpoint, in the U.S., it’s in spring. “[Meteorological Spring](https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/whats-the-difference-between-meteorological-and-astronomical-spring/70000979)” (in the U.S.) is defined as the months of March, April, and May. The astronomical definintions of the seasons (i.e., “spring starts with the vernal equinox”) don’t line up as well with the actual weather patterns as the meteorological definions do. Thus, meteorologists treat things like the vernal equinox as a curiosity, at most. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/3 "2019-03-19T19:23:49Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > It is always just before the vernal equinox. But it also is in March. And it is a very verdant, green warm holiday too, you have to admit. This is a subjective rather than technical definition, but it depends–where are you? We’re in the Northeast and while yes, days are getting longer and sun is getting stronger, this year we had a “verdant, warm” high of\*\* 43° \*\*and low of **33°** on St Patrick’s Day. In the past there have been warmer days… **and** there have been several times when we’ve had snowfall or snow on the ground. In fact there were still some unmelted snow piles in north-facing corners this year. So, occasionally, some years it feels like a Spring holiday, while this year and much of the time it’s felt like one of the last gasps of winter. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/4 "2019-03-19T19:25:27Z")
There are several technical definitions of the season. In the northern temperate zone, Astronomical spring begins on the March equinox and ends on the June solstice. Meteorological spring starts on March 1 and ends on May 31. Solar spring is centered on the March equinox, so it begins about 45 days before the equinox (early February) and ends about 45 days after it (early May). I vaguely remember reading about a fourth definition in an old meteorology textbook, but I don’t remember what it’s called. It defined summer as the stretch of 91 days with the warmest average temperatures, winter as the coldest stretch of 91 days, with spring and fall in between. Under this definition, the start and end dates of each season vary from place to place and spring and fall are not necessarily of the same length. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/5 "2019-03-19T19:31:30Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > And it is a very verdant, green warm holiday too, you have to admit. So, I see you’re not from Chicagoland. LOL We’ve had snow and/or wind chills in the single digits on St. Patrick’s Day on several occasions. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/6 "2019-03-19T19:34:38Z")
As a Californian who spent this St. Patrick’s Day in Chicago, I agree that there was nothing verdant or green about it (except the river). ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/7 "2019-03-19T19:41:07Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > From a meteorological standpoint, in the U.S., it’s in spring. “[Meteorological Spring](https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/whats-the-difference-between-meteorological-and-astronomical-spring/70000979)” (in the U.S.) is defined as the months of March, April, and May. > > The astronomical definintions of the seasons (i.e., “spring starts with the vernal equinox”) don’t line up as well with the actual weather patterns as the meteorological definions do. Thus, meteorologists treat things like the vernal equinox as a curiosity, at most. In fact, the solstices and equinoxes might more sensibly be considered the middle of their respective seasons than the starts. The points midway between them, the so-called “cross quarter days” would be better dividing lines. For modern usage, we could place them at the beginnings of the months of February, May, August and November, although people attempting to revive pagan calendars don’t always place them exactly on those dates. Oddly enough, we already have some sort of observance near three of them: Feb 1 (Imbolc) - near Groundhog Day, a joking observance which kind of recognizes that it’s often getting spring like by then. May 1 (Beltane) - May Day. Quite a logical place to begin summer. August 1 (Lammas) - traditionally a celebration of the beginning of the harvest season, celebrated by baking bread. Logical start to fall. November 1 (Samhain) - very appropriate that Halloween be the eve of the start of winter. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/8 "2019-03-19T19:46:08Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > In fact, the solstices and equinoxes might more sensibly be considered the middle of their respective seasons than the starts. I’ve been saying this for years. Saying that summer starts when the days start getting shorter is idiotic, yet that’s precisely what people are doing when they say the summer begins with the summer solstice. > [@](#): > > The points midway between them, the so-called “cross quarter days” would be better dividing lines. For modern usage, we could place them at the beginnings of the months of February, May, August and November, although people attempting to revive pagan calendars don’t always place them exactly on those dates. Oddly enough, we already have some sort of observance near three of them: > > Feb 1 (Imbolc) - near Groundhog Day, a joking observance which kind of recognizes that it’s often getting spring like by then. > > May 1 (Beltane) - May Day. Quite a logical place to begin summer. > > August 1 (Lammas) - traditionally a celebration of the beginning of the harvest season, celebrated by baking bread. Logical start to fall. > > November 1 (Samhain) - very appropriate that Halloween be the eve of the start of winter. Now all we need is a holiday for August and we’re set! I propose something like “Love Day”, only with a name which isn’t stupid. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/9 "2019-03-19T20:01:28Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > In fact, the solstices and equinoxes might more sensibly be considered the middle of their respective seasons than the starts. The points midway between them, the so-called “cross quarter days” would be better dividing lines. For modern usage, we could place them at the beginnings of the months of February, May, August and November If you’re interested in length of daylight, sure. But very few of any people in, say, the northern half of the US would say that February is in spring and August is in fall. February is as cold as December on average and quite a bit colder than November (11 degrees F in Washington DC, for example). It certainly has more snowfall than November. August is as hot as June on average and 9 degrees hotter than May. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/10 "2019-03-19T20:24:50Z")
If you’re an American, this is easy. Winter starts on Thanksgiving Spring begins on Easter. Since the date for Easter shifts from year to year, it means winter and spring are variable. Summer starts on Memorial Day Fall starts on Labor Day Any other definition is arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/11 "2019-03-19T21:15:40Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > In fact, the solstices and equinoxes might more sensibly be considered the middle of their respective seasons than the starts. And in fact, [Midsummer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer) coincides roughly with the summer solstice, while the winter solstice is also known as [Midwinter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice). > [@kunilou](#): > > If you’re an American, this is easy. For some Americans, maybe. Definitely not for Hawaiians or Alaskans. Down here in subtropical Houston, Spring typically begins late in February or early in March, Summer around May 1 (maybe into April by some measures), Autumn near Halloween, and Winter usually sneaks into place sometime in January. By Memorial Day, if you aren’t already powdering your nethers, the chafing is terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/12 "2019-03-19T23:07:27Z")
Quick side note. I live in Detroit, MI. So you’re preaching to the choir about how cold and wintry it sometimes is. No, I was talking about what we celebrate with the holiday. Green things like Shamrocks and clovers. And Ireland too I think. Also FWIW in Detroit we have had a short spell of warm weather as I write this. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/13 "2019-03-20T00:03:03Z")
After the technicalities have been cleared, can I piggyback on this question? What came into my mind when noticing this year that St. Patrick’s Day is the 17th of March, and therefore must be always during catholic lent, how do the Irish (now the real devout, and the Irish have a reputation for being really devout) reconcile the festivities with the imperative of fasting? Or is it the usual catholic “in principle we care, except when we don’t care”? ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/14 "2019-03-20T00:08:06Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Now all we need is a holiday for August and we’re set! > > I propose something like “Love Day”, only with a name which isn’t stupid. Canada already has a “Civic Holiday” as a long weekend, 1st Monday of August, in every province except Quebec & Yukon: > **[Public holidays - Canada.ca](https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/public-holidays.html)** > > Information for individuals and businesses on public holidays. [Civic Holiday 2024 - the August long weekend](https://www.statutoryholidays.com/civic-holiday.php) ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/15 "2019-03-20T00:12:31Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > After the technicalities have been cleared, can I piggyback on this question? What came into my mind when noticing this year that St. Patrick’s Day is the 17th of March, and therefore must be always during catholic lent, how do the Irish (now the real devout, and the Irish have a reputation for being really devout) reconcile the festivities with the imperative of fasting? Or is it the usual catholic “in principle we care, except when we don’t care”? The main issue would be if the 17th falls on a Friday as it did in 2017, when Catholics aren’t supposed to have meat during Lent. There have been cases where local bishops have OK’d meat, with conditions: \*"The timing has not gone unnoticed by some U.S. bishops. Before Lent even started, many of them issued dispensations for Catholics in their dioceses allowing them to eat meat on St. Patrick’s Day. The dispensation does not take Catholics totally off the hook. Many bishops advised Catholics over age 14, who are required to abstain from meat on Friday, to do an extra act of charity or penance in exchange for eating meat. Bishop Robert C. Morlino of Madison, Wisconsin, took it a step further. In a statement, he said Catholics should also “exercise due moderation and temperance in festivities and celebrations of the memorial of St. Patrick, in keeping with the solemnity and honor that is due to so great a saint and his tireless efforts to inspire holiness in the Christian faithful.”\* [https://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2017/corned-beef-conundrum-some-dioceses-give-st-patricks-day-dispensation.cfm](https://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2017/corned-beef-conundrum-some-dioceses-give-st-patricks-day-dispensation.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/16 "2019-03-20T00:16:52Z")
I don’t think Catholics fast; they give up something for Lent, like booze or chocolate or something. And that is the devout crowd. Most don’t even do that. Besides, what a bizarre OP. Do you not take into consideration that people live in different latitudes, not to mention hemispheres? ETA: It’s still fucking winter here. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/17 "2019-03-20T00:17:49Z")
Catholicism has specific rules for what’s allowed in Lent, and the only one that is (or can be) relevant is the no-meat-on-Fridays rule. And that’s a rule of the sort that bishops have the authority to grant exceptions for, and it’s common in areas with a lot of Irish folk for the bishop to grant an exemption for St. Patrick’s Day. And it’s spring when you can go outside without a jacket, and summer when you can go outside in shorts and a T-shirt. Which means that the last day of winter is usually a good bit after the first day of spring, and likewise with spring and summer. But around here, St. Patrick’s Day is usually winter. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-and-spring/831378/18 "2019-03-20T00:18:20Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > The main issue would be if the 17th falls on a Friday as it did in 2017, when Catholics aren’t supposed to have meat during Lent. There have been cases where local bishops have OK’d meat, with conditions: > > \*"The timing has not gone unnoticed by some U.S. bishops. Before Lent even started, many of them issued dispensations for Catholics in their dioceses allowing them to eat meat on St. Patrick’s Day. > > The dispensation does not take Catholics totally off the hook. Many bishops advised Catholics over age 14, who are required to abstain from meat on Friday, to do an extra act of charity or penance in exchange for eating meat. > > Bishop Robert C. Morlino of Madison, Wisconsin, took it a step further. In a statement, he said Catholics should also “exercise due moderation and temperance in festivities and celebrations of the memorial of St. Patrick, in keeping with the solemnity and honor that is due to so great a saint and his tireless efforts to inspire holiness in the Christian faithful.”\* > > [https://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2017/corned-beef-conundrum-some-dioceses-give-st-patricks-day-dispensation.cfm](https://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2017/corned-beef-conundrum-some-dioceses-give-st-patricks-day-dispensation.cfm) Well thanks, but to be honest, I wasn’t thinking so much about meat as about alcohol. As I’ve always understood the concept of lent (I was unsuccessfully raised Catholic), everything during lent should be done in moderation. A St. Patrick’s Day parade looks anything but moderate.