# St. Patrick's Day question (Why "Paddy"?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 17, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765 "2010-03-17T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/1 "2010-03-17T16:45:15Z")
After seeing yet another “Happy St. Paddy’s Day,” I have to ask: Huh? How do you get “Paddy” from “Patrick”? There’s no D in it. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/2 "2010-03-17T16:49:47Z")
Seriously? I assume you can see where “Patrick” becomes “Patty” for short, and “Patty” & “Paddy” sound almost identical, especially with some Irish accents (I’ve seen and heard “Patrick” coming out as “Padrig”, for example). ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/3 "2010-03-17T17:01:03Z")
There’s no “B” (for Bill) in William, either, but sometimes nicknames don’t make a whole lot of sense. For instance, Sally is sometimes a diminutive of Sarah (or it used to be). And Molly for Mary. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/4 "2010-03-17T17:03:18Z")
Patrick in Irish Gaelic is Pádraig. I can imagine that the diminutive of that name would be Paddy. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/5 "2010-03-17T19:28:49Z")
St. Patrick’s actual name was in Britannic Latin (he was born in what’s now England near the end of Roman rule in the area), and either was, or was very similar to, Patricius (hard c, /k/ sound). (This assumes that the facts about his life are valid, which barring later embroideries like driving out the snakes is probably a reasonable assumption.) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/6 "2010-03-17T19:46:42Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > Seriously? > > I assume you can see where “Patrick” becomes “Patty” for short Seriously. I never see anyone refer to “St. Patty”—why not? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/7 "2010-03-17T19:48:41Z")
> [@h.sapiens](#): > > There’s no “B” (for Bill) in William, either, but sometimes nicknames don’t make a whole lot of sense. > > For instance, Sally is sometimes a diminutive of Sarah (or it used to be). And Molly for Mary. If you have explanations/derivations for any of those, I’d be interested in hearing them, too. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/8 "2010-03-17T19:57:07Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > After seeing yet another “Happy St. Paddy’s Day,” I have to ask: Huh? How do you get “Paddy” from “Patrick”? There’s no D in it. There’s no K in Nicholas, but some people call him St. Nick. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/9 "2010-03-17T20:16:32Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Seriously. I never see anyone refer to “St. Patty”—why not? Probably because Patty is diminuitive for Patricia, not for Patrick. ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/10 "2010-03-17T20:31:30Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If you have explanations/derivations for any of those, I’d be interested in hearing them, too. Here’s [WikiAnswers](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_Bill_become_a_nickname_for_William) explanation for William/Bill. [This website](http://webspace.webring.com/people/ge/edgarbook/names/other/nicknames.html) suggests that the swapping of letters can happen between two languages, such as when Normans conquered the AngloSaxons, or when children can’t pronounce a certain letter, and another is substituted that is easier for them to say. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/11 "2010-03-17T20:32:26Z")
Paddy is an Anglo-Irish shortening of Padraig (or -aic, if you prefer), not of Patrick _per se_. /t/ and /d/ are the unvoiced and voiced dental stops respectivelty, and languages (such as the Celtic languages, German, and Russian) where voicing is governed by position in the word will show the relationship. Even in English the related pair /s/ and /z/ can be noted in the final soudns of “plants” and “herbs.” Similarly to “Paddy”, the national ethnic nickname for the Welsh is “Taffy”, from St. David, Daffyd in Welsh, with the initial /d/ very lightly voiced, almost a /t/ sound. ---
**Author:** ![Monstera\_deliciosa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monstera_deliciosa/32/109_2.png) [@Monstera\_deliciosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstera_deliciosa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/12 "2010-03-17T20:33:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Seriously. I never see anyone refer to “St. Patty”—why not? Just because you haven’t seen it, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. I’ve seen the term “St. Patty’s Day” frequently throughout my life, probably more often than “St. Paddy’s Day.” For reference, I’m in my late 40s and originally from the NYC metro area. ---
**Author:** ![Monstera\_deliciosa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monstera_deliciosa/32/109_2.png) [@Monstera\_deliciosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstera_deliciosa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/13 "2010-03-17T20:44:55Z")
> [@Monstera\_deliciosa](#): > > Just because you haven’t seen it, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. I’ve seen the term “St. Patty’s Day” frequently throughout my life, probably more often than “St. Paddy’s Day.” > > For reference, I’m in my late 40s and originally from the NYC metro area. Okay, this is GQ and that wasn’t a factual answer. Sorry about that. An exact phrase search on Google turns up 49,200,000 hits for “St. Patty’s Day,” but only 372,000 hits for “St. Paddy’s Day.” ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/14 "2010-03-17T23:10:30Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > “Patty” & “Paddy” sound almost identical, especially with some Irish accents That’s funny - I would have said “especially in some American accents”. Irish accents distinguish between “ladder” and “latter”; American accents don’t. Lots of Irish people are called Patrick, but very few of them are actually _called_ Patrick, it’s usually Paddy or Pat. Why Paddy? Maybe because the Irish version Pádraic is abbreviated to Páidí, which can be anglicised to Paddy. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/15 "2010-03-18T00:01:29Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > That’s funny - I would have said “especially in some American accents”. Irish accents distinguish between “ladder” and “latter”; American accents don’t. Yes, they do. I can’t speak for _all_ American accents, but I know I personally do not pronounce “ladder” and “latter” the same way and I can’t recall ever noticing anyone else in the US doing so. They’re very close, but not the same. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/16 "2010-03-18T00:10:28Z")
If you make the distinction, then I over-generalised. But for most American speakers the medial consonant in both “latter” and “ladder” is realised as an alveolar tap. It’s one of the characteristic features of American accents. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/17 "2010-03-18T00:18:23Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > If you make the distinction, then I over-generalised. But for most American speakers the medial consonant in both “latter” and “ladder” is realised as an alveolar tap. It’s one of the characteristic features of American accents. FWIW, I’m American, and I’ve noticed this and pronounce the words the same. “Latter” = “ladder”. “Water” = “wadder”. And so forth. In fact, it sounds odd to me when someone clearly enunciates the “t” in those words, and I tend to think of that as indicative of a “British” accent. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/18 "2010-03-18T01:25:19Z")
Indeed, most Americans, in my experience (I am a Brit, but I have lived in the U.S. for over 20 years) pronounce a **T** in the middle of a word as a **D**. This can lead to real problems. Not long ago, a waitress, who understood the rest of my order perfectly well, could not understand my request for a glass of water. The problem was exacerbated because my first instinct was to pronounce the **T** more definitely and clearly, which only puzzled her more. My sister-in-law, whose name is Patrice, is usually addressed and referred to as “Paddy” (at least it pronounced that way, perhaps other family members would write it down as “Patty”). When my English parents were introduced to her, they were puzzled, and asked me what name “Paddy” could be short for. The problem was first forced on my attention, however, when I was a TA for a psychology professor who was lecturing about human memory. Psychologists commonly draw a distinction between what they call “semantic memory” (roughly, memory for facts) and “episodic memory” (memories of particular episodes in one’s life), and as he was explaining this to the class he wrote the word **EPISOTIC** on the blackboard in large block letters. When I drew his attention to what I thought as a simple mistake, he looked surprised, and said “Well that is how I say it. How would you spell it then? . . . Oh, with a D? Yes, I suppose it is from ‘episode’.” I can only imagine that, before I turned up, a generation of students had come out of his classes believing in some mental function mysteriously named “episotic memory.” ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/19 "2010-03-18T05:16:45Z")
Hmm. I’m American, and my experience is what **Lamia** describes, rather than what **pulykamell** and **njtt** relate. Part of it may be what part of the country each of us is in; there can be significant regional variants. I’m thinking also that part of it may be that the distinction between medial “t” and “d” is quite subtle. Someone who is accustomed to hearing a more pronounced differentiation may not perceive the difference, while **Lamia** and I may be trained through experience to detect it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765/20 "2010-03-18T05:26:40Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Not long ago, a waitress, who understood the rest of my order perfectly well, could not understand my request for a glass of water. The problem was exacerbated because my first instinct was to pronounce the **T** more definitely and clearly, which only puzzled her more. I can’t help but think there was more to this than just some T/D confusion (e.g., perhaps your pronunciation of some other portion of the word was unfamiliar to her). It beggars belief that she couldn’t make out that you wanted water. > [@](#): > > …he wrote the word **EPISOTIC** on the blackboard in large block letters…“. . . Oh, with a D? Yes, I suppose it is from ‘episode’.” This, sadly, I find all too believable, and overwhelmingly despair-inducing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-patricks-day-question-why-paddy/532765.md?page=2)