# St Pete Times: Special Report on Scientology **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 21, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471 "2009-06-21T14:29:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/41 "2009-06-23T17:19:26Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I waffle on Mormonism. I personally find it laughable, but I live in a Mormon-heavy town, and I work with them every day, so I have come to give at least grudging respect to the cohesiveness of their families. I have none of that for Scientology. I would accept your distinction. Actually, I find that Mormons past the missionary phase are lovely people. I live in fear of white shirts on bicycles, though. ETA: Scientology is organized crime masquerading as a religion. I hope they fall hard. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/42 "2009-06-23T17:21:13Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > All religions start out as cults. Eventually they gain acceptance through child indoctrination and plain old time. From the viewpoint of someone who has never been indoctrinated, it’s no weirder than **The Big Three**. Ford, GM and Chrysler? Or Jerry Lee Lewis, The Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens? I’m so confused. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/43 "2009-06-23T18:05:49Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > Ford, GM and Chrysler? Or Jerry Lee Lewis, The Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens? > I’m so confused. He must mean Christianity, Islam and… I’m not sure. Judaism can hardly be called big. Buddhism is fairly widespread, but is only sort of a religion - more like a philosophy with religious trappings. Or he could mean CBS, NBC and ABC, but what about Fox and the cable channels then? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/44 "2009-06-23T18:17:15Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > He must mean Christianity, Islam and… I’m not sure. Judaism can hardly be called big. Judaism’s always the third one when the topic is Western religions. Size aside, it’s the predecessor of Christianity and Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/45 "2009-06-23T18:34:43Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > As the lovely Ms. K observes, it generally seems as tho cult + time = religion. > Just to get a framework of where you come from, do you consider Mormon a religion? > > I have essentially no sympathy for any cults or religions. But if I were to distinguish between the two, I think I would suggest that a religion pursues some broader socially beneficial agendas rather than cults which do are aimed primarily at simply increasing the number and devotion of their members and the organization’s wealth. The big difference between Scientology and religions is that Scientology came directly from a purely secular movement, calling itself a religion only when under legal challenge. I don’t know if Joseph Smith actually believed he met an angel; it is possible. It is also possible that he wrote convinced he was divinely inspired, and made up the golden tablets story to be more convincing for what he considered a good cause. I suspect Brigham Young agreed. The cases would be similar if Smith had formed a society to foster polygamy, and turned it into a religion to avoid prosecution - which is not what happened in so many ways. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/46 "2009-06-23T18:36:46Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > My reaction of reading this was: wehave a 50+ year old cult that was founded by a delusional writer of cheap science fiction, now run by a violent psychopath! How would anybody in his right mind want to stay in this “religion”? Hubbard’s sf and fantasy in the '40s was reasonably well considered by the readers of Astounding and Unknown, which were not cheap sf. Was he delusional? I don’t think he was at the beginning - cynical and a crook yes, delusional, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/47 "2009-06-23T18:47:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Judaism’s always the third one when the topic is Western religions. Size aside, it’s the predecessor of Christianity and Islam. There’s also Hinduism. Geographically, it’s mostly concentrated in India, but that country has a population of over 1.5 billion. And According to Wikipedia [Hinduism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism)is the world’s third largest religion. Back to the OP: I’ve read parts one and two of that piece, and MAN, that Miscavige\* is a scary guy. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if one of his followers just snaps and kills him one of these days. The followers might be devoted, might see him as a Chosen One… but if you kick a dog often enough, don’t be surprised if it bites back once. That might not be a good analogy, but I think you all get my point. \*Anyone else notice how that name is so close to miscarriage? Coincidence? I think so. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/48 "2009-06-23T18:56:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Judaism’s always the third one when the topic is Western religions. Size aside, it’s the predecessor of Christianity and Islam. Okay, sorry, I don’t think of religions in terms of Western and Eastern especially as Islam is more Eastern than Western, at least in terms of where their “base” is located. Since I’m not religious I tend to think of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as a tree with a short trunk and two large branches and then Buddhism growing out of Hinduism similar to the way Christianity and Islam both evolved out of Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/49 "2009-06-23T19:09:10Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I’d be impressed if they could convince a UK court to assert jurisdiction over a Floridian newspaper. English courts have asserted jurisdiction over all sorts of defamation which didn’t take place in England. The SPT has an online version, which is enough for English courts. [QUOTE=R\_t\_A] There’s also Hinduism. Geographically, it’s mostly concentrated in India, but that country has a population of over 1.5 billion. [/QUOTE] Not yet, it doesn’t. Even China doesn’t have that many people. The most current estimates for the population of India are somewhere in the 1.1 - 1.2 billion range. Hinduism is the third largest religion in terms of adherents, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/50 "2009-06-23T19:14:46Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > He must mean Christianity, Islam and… I’m not sure. Judaism can hardly be called big. Buddhism is fairly widespread, but is only sort of a religion - more like a philosophy with religious trappings. > Or he could mean CBS, NBC and ABC, but what about Fox and the cable channels then? I’m pretty sure Shirley was pullin’ my leg. She knows I meant Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and Sammy Davis, Jr. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/51 "2009-06-24T00:26:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not yet, it doesn’t. Even China doesn’t have that many people. > > The most current estimates for the population of India are somewhere in the 1.1 - 1.2 billion range. Hinduism is the third largest religion in terms of adherents, though. Right, my bad. My post should read as “more than 1.15 billion”. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/52 "2009-06-24T04:48:58Z")
So, did anyone catch South Park last night? It was a rerun of the Scientology episode where Tom Cruise is stuck in the closet. Wicked hilarious. I’m just disappointed they didn’t also show the other Scientology-related episode where Chef joins that child molestation group and turns into Darth Chef at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/53 "2009-06-25T18:20:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The cases would be similar if Smith had formed a society to foster polygamy, and turned it into a religion to avoid prosecution - which is not what happened in so many ways. I haven’t read up on Mormon in some time, so my recollection may well be faulty, but ISTR that JS was a pretty hinky dude, not far from a con-man, with a backstory as a “money digger” or somesuch. And tho my vaguely recalled source may have had an agenda, I recall that he got his message from Moron-i about polygamy after he was already married and right around the time he got the hots for his cousin or somesuch. Viewed from a distance of centuries, it is easier to believe that the earliest advocates of various cults and/or religions were something other than conmen or control freaks. I’ve heard folk convincingly argue that Jesus’ message - and implication to the state - was as a political/social revolutionary, at least as much if not moreso than as a religious figure. I think it can often be difficult to completely distinguish between the religious from the secular. A message or movement may see fit to characterize itself as one or the other depending on various factors. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/54 "2009-06-25T19:50:28Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I haven’t read up on Mormon in some time, so my recollection may well be faulty, but ISTR that JS was a pretty hinky dude, not far from a con-man, with a backstory as a “money digger” or somesuch. > > And tho my vaguely recalled source may have had an agenda, I recall that he got his message from Moron-i about polygamy after he was already married and right around the time he got the hots for his cousin or somesuch. No doubt. But back then him turning it into a religion might have made him feel better about it, and helped in recruiting, but it didn’t do much to keep the law off him. We have know way of knowing if he actually believed he saw the angel. People have delusions all the time. But there was no pre-existing secular organization. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/55 "2009-06-25T22:34:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But there was no pre-existing secular organization. Yeah - I think that is a valid distinction. But I guess what is bouncing around in my head is a wonder whether some organizations become designated “religions” - not for a particular spiritual reason, but to take advantage of various social or governmental conventions. Avoiding taxes, more limited government interference, perhaps some more tendencies to be accepted, benefitting from anti-discrimination protection… I’ll probably display my ignorance here, but I’m thinking if - say - rastafarianism is for some more a lifestyle/philospophy, than a religion. Perhaps in the way there is religious and cultural Judaism. Or as others have observed, many westerners consider Buddhism to be a religion. Wouldn’t many “cults” or social organizations benefit from being designated religions? White supremacists? Branch Davidians? Rev. Moon? Who gets to decide? Maybe I’m overthinking this. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/56 "2009-06-26T01:12:51Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > […] Or as others have observed, many westerners consider Buddhism to be a religion. […] Buddhism as practiced by many Buddhists probably deserves the name of religion. I’d say it’s mostly in the west that it is presented as something other than a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/57 "2009-06-26T14:02:03Z")
That’s because the [English](http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxligion?view=uk) definition of “religion” is > [@](#): > > 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion. and belief in a superhuman controlling power is not an essential feature of Buddhism. It’s more of an optional extra. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/58 "2009-06-26T14:20:17Z")
Sort of a hijack, but you all might be interested: I’ve been following a blog called “The Church Experiment” in which a Christian guy – but pretty liberal and rational (and note to those who would inteject that “Christian” is not consistent with “liberal” or “rational”: Don’t bother) – searches for a a church home by attending 52 churches in 52 weeks. In [Week 5](http://stevenfuller.blogspot.com/2009/02/church-experiment-5-church-of.htm'), he attended Scientologist services. His post is IMO a pretty objective and respectful recounting of what goes on in the Scientology weekly services. He found them . . . odd. Sounds strange as hell to me. He also makes the point that “cult” versus “legitimate church” is probably largely a matter of POV. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/59 "2009-06-26T14:42:02Z")
[Fixed Link](http://churchexperiment.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471/60 "2009-06-26T15:59:48Z")
Thanks for the link Jodi that was very interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-pete-times-special-report-on-scientology/500471.md?page=4)