# ST:TNG - Darmok: was that a joke? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** star-trek-paramount\ **Created:** [December 2, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761 "2004-12-02T21:08:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/21 "2004-12-03T00:20:09Z")
Two trees==greed. Think of the Tamarian language, not in WestEnglish terms, but in MidAsian terms. Picard figured that out, using the story of Gilgamesh to help break the code. It was a stiuation in which Picard have to be the Rosetta Stone, instead of looking for one. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/22 "2004-12-03T03:13:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Now I know how engineers must feel everytime something is routed through the deflector dish. Actually, my big pet peeve is the number of times they reversed the polarity on something or other. You can reverse the polarity on an electric motor, and it will probably run in reverse like you were hoping it would, but with electronic circuitry, reversing the polarity is a bad bad _BAD_ idea. The results will probably be a big mess of fried electronics, and a ship full of repair guys all cursing your bones :o ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/23 "2004-12-03T03:31:33Z")
Keep in mind that the whole metaphor thing was merely a possibility suggested in the Observation Lounge after Picard was taken to the planet. Perhaps the main point was that the Tamarian language structure was so alien that it stumped the Universal Translator. With most languages, the Universal Translator is able to quickly decipher vocabulary, grammar and syntax. But you’ll notice that the Tamarian speech - as translated into English - completely lacked action verbs. The UT, unable to find anything resembling an action verb, simply did the best it could by stringing the pronouns and proper nouns together. Also, there’s the possibility of the culture having different languages for different purposes, similar to the way Europe once used Latin for science. Maybe the Tamarians that had had contact with the Federation were using their diplomatic language. For cultural reasons, it didn’t occur to them to use their “common” language or their “scientific” language. For example, Tamaria could have several “nations”, with each nation being an offshoot of an earlier culture. Each of these “nations” might speak a different language, or dialect. But, being derived from the same cultural roots, the different nations have a mythology in common. And so there could be a special language, rooted in references to the common mythology, used expressly for the purpose of diplomacy. People in every nation would understand it. This idea reminds me of the gestural languages used by the Clan people in Jean Auel’s _Clan of the Cave Bear_ series. Each small clan had its own gestural language, but there was also the Ceremonial Language (I think that’s what it was called) that was known to everybody everywhere. The Ceremonial Language allowed Clan members from one tribe to communicate with Clan members from a tribe hundreds of miles away. And as somebody else mentioned here, the Clan also had “racial memory” - they were born knowing everything they needed to know to survive, and teaching that knowledge to a child was simply a matter of “reminding” that child of what he or she already knew. I can see the Tamarians developing in a similar manner. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/24 "2004-12-03T03:43:32Z")
**Diceman** –they don’t actually use electricity. They use plasma. It’s true! I read it in a book! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/25 "2004-12-03T04:58:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m with **Munch** and **Sweetums** on this one. Although the episode had some good drama, the entire concept behind the Darmok language was just so dumb I couldn’t get past it. I can tell you people have never heard a couple of fundamentalist Christians have a conversation entirely in Bible verses. Greatest single ST:TNG episode ever. ---
**Author:** ![AmbushBug](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ambushbug/32/4600_2.png) [@AmbushBug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmbushBug)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/26 "2004-12-03T06:42:06Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > How can precision mathematics be described, let along manipulated? How could a people that communicate that way handle the science required to build a starship? The Tamarians were able to communicate with great precision using their metaphor-by-story-reference language. This was characterized in the episode when the Tamarian ship fired to disable the Enterprise. It’s been a long time since I saw the episode, and I saw it once, but didn’t Data comment on the incredible precision of their shots? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/27 "2004-12-03T06:53:08Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Actually, my big pet peeve is the number of times they reversed the polarity on something or other. You can reverse the polarity on an electric motor, and it will probably run in reverse like you were hoping it would… Not if it’s a single-phase induction motor, as most of them are. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/28 "2004-12-03T06:53:29Z")
> [@AmbushBug](#): > > The Tamarians were able to communicate with great precision using their metaphor-by-story-reference language. > > This was characterized in the episode when the Tamarian ship fired to disable the Enterprise. It’s been a long time since I saw the episode, and I saw it once, but didn’t Data comment on the incredible precision of their shots? “Photon torpedo, in between those two access ports right over there below that window.” Hmm. Doesn’t have quite the same ring to it… ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/29 "2004-12-03T07:38:56Z")
> [@AmbushBug](#): > > The Tamarians were able to communicate with great precision using their metaphor-by-story-reference language. > > This was characterized in the episode when the Tamarian ship fired to disable the Enterprise. It’s been a long time since I saw the episode, and I saw it once, but didn’t Data comment on the incredible precision of their shots? As far as I remember, the Tamarians were a one-episode species. You might be thinking of the Talarians. ---
**Author:** ![AmbushBug](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ambushbug/32/4600_2.png) [@AmbushBug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmbushBug)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/30 "2004-12-03T09:57:58Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > As far as I remember, the Tamarians were a one-episode species. > > You might be thinking of the Talarians. 😕 I refer to those from the OP. From [here](http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/episode/68510.html): > [@](#): > > When Riker dispatches a shuttlecraft to the planet’s surface to retrieve Picard, the Tamarians stop it by firing their weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/31 "2004-12-03T10:01:45Z")
I misread your post, thinking you said “where” instead of “when”. My mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/32 "2004-12-03T10:14:06Z")
The only way the “DarmoK” language concept works is if there is a simpler basal tongue where the terms are commonly taught and spoken, but there is a “higher” language (if you will) where metaphor is the preferred method of speaking and comunicating for whatever culturally-reinforced rationale. I could see such a “higher” language being used in exclusively in a diplomatic court or by that species’ royal class or intellegentsia as a means of separating themselves, but not the bridge officers of a starship that would routinely come in contact with beings from other worlds. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/33 "2004-12-03T13:42:11Z")
> [@AmbushBug](#): > > The Tamarians were able to communicate with great precision using their metaphor-by-story-reference language. But that’s only because the writers said they could. I would be highly skeptical that they would really be able to or that Picard could really understand their stories. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/34 "2004-12-03T14:29:06Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I can tell you people have never heard a couple of fundamentalist Christians have a conversation entirely in Bible verses. > > Greatest single ST:TNG episode ever. I fail to see your point. Bible verses are based in English, and follow rules of grammar and syntax. We understand their literal meaning (as opposed to their metaphorical meaning) because the individual words have individual meaning. That is not the case for the Tamaranians. Their individual words have absolutely no basis for existence, only the stories themselves. Which are impossible to form without basic rules of grammar. It’s a good episode, but only up and until the point where you discover that’s it’s a house of cards. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/35 "2004-12-03T15:49:28Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > It’s a good episode, but only up and until the point where you discover that’s it’s a house of cards. They live in a spaceship, **Munch**. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/36 "2004-12-03T16:30:36Z")
How did they come up with the stories in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/37 "2004-12-03T16:49:03Z")
> [@Sir Rhosis](#): > > ^^^What jokes are those? I remember it as a joke about someone visiting a retirement home for Vaudeville comedians. Since the residents (RVCs) all knew and told the same jokes over their careers, they just assigned numbers to them. 1st RVC: “54” everyone laughs 2nd RVC: “17” everyone laughs Visitor: “Let me try. 12.” no one laughs RVC attendant: “It’s all in the delivery.” ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/38 "2004-12-03T22:33:14Z")
Guy goes to visit his grandpa at the old folks’ home. There’s a bunch of old geezers sitting around in their rocking chairs. One of them says “15!” and they all laugh. Another says “22!” and they laugh. “Grampa,” says the guy. “What’s going on?” “Well, we’ve all been here long enough we know everybody’s jokes. We got tired of waiting for people to tell them again, so we just assigned them numbers.” One of the old guys says “46!” The guys laugh, but only politely. “What’s wrong with that one, Grampa?” “Oh, Bob can’t do an Italian accent.” Suddenly an old man stands up. He stares into the middle distance, raises his hand, and yells, “326!” It’s pandemonium. There’s old guys laughing their asses off, falling out of their chairs, pounding on their backs. It’s amazing. “Grampa! What’s going on???” “Never heard that one before!” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/39 "2004-12-03T23:04:01Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > They live in a spaceship, **Munch**. > > –Cliffy Awesome. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/40 "2004-12-03T23:50:58Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I could see such a “higher” language being used in exclusively in a diplomatic court or by that species’ royal class or intellegentsia as a means of separating themselves, but not the bridge officers of a starship that would routinely come in contact with beings from other worlds. Maybe that’s why they’re a small, somewhat little-known species. It _is_ a bad idea to have their bridge officers use the metaphor language, but they won’t give it up. Hey, who says that humans have monopoly on boneheaded policy blunders? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761.md?page=3)