# ST:TNG - Darmok: was that a joke? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** star-trek-paramount\ **Created:** [December 2, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761 "2004-12-02T21:08:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/41 "2004-12-04T04:15:14Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The results will probably be a big mess of fried electronics, and a ship full of repair guys all cursing your bones :o You mean like most Star Trek episodes? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/42 "2023-10-09T19:07:57Z")
Bumped. A 2014 analysis of “Darmok”: [Shaka, When the Walls Fell - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/06/star-trek-tng-and-the-limits-of-language-shaka-when-the-walls-fell/372107/) Not sure I buy the author’s argument - I think a technologically-sophisticated, starfaring civilization would need a more practical way of conveying info for day-to-day living - but it is interesting. And a very good episode! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/43 "2023-10-09T19:24:06Z")
Is someone bored at work? A 19 year old bump to reference a 9 year old article? Kershaw, his fastball gone. Shaka, when the walls fell. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/44 "2023-10-09T19:29:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I think a technologically-sophisticated, starfaring civilization would need a more practical way of conveying info for day-to-day living You mean there is no story that conveys “turn the bolt counterclockwise until torque reaches 30 pounds”? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/45 "2023-10-09T19:40:51Z")
I’m off work today, **silenus** , and found no other thread here about “Darmok.” I didn’t see this article until a few days ago. And exactly, **Darren**! ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/46 "2023-10-09T19:45:49Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Not sure I buy the author’s argument - I think a technologically-sophisticated, starfaring civilization would need a more practical way of conveying info for day-to-day living - but it is interesting. I’ve head that criticism before, but I think it misses how often humans do the same thing on a starship. How often have we heard the captain say “evasive maneuvers Delta”, or something like that? He’s ordering a complex action by comparing it to something they’ve done (or trained to do) before, just as the Tamarian language does. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/47 "2023-10-09T20:09:32Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > What a horribly absurd language concept. Yeah, how do you say “hand me that 9mm torque wrench” or anything technical. Sure it can work for opening conversations. > [@dropzone](#): > > I can tell you people have never heard a couple of fundamentalist Christians have a conversation entirely in Bible verses. Sure, but then you are often using the literal meaning. Also, try using Bible verses to repair a car. > [@dropzone](#): > > Greatest single ST:TNG episode ever. One of the worst. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/48 "2023-10-09T20:26:46Z")
There was also an episode of Voyager that played some linguistic games, but not to the degree of “Darmok”. Don’t recall the title. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/49 "2023-10-09T21:37:39Z")
“In Winter.” That was when the universal translator got broken. Still waiting on parts. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/50 "2023-10-09T22:27:17Z")
I used to know a linguist who liked this episode because it showed that you couldn’t just rely on a universal translator. There was always going to need to be a need for people who slowly learned the fiddly bits and the unspoken bits. When she was older, she thought she had a chance to learn Cambodian. But it wasn’t in an academic situation and she ran across a problem. There was a cultural rule (at least in the group she had access to) forbidding younger people from directly correcting anyone who was elderly. So whatever mistakes she made, they would adjust to with no comment. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/51 "2023-10-09T22:36:26Z")
I agree that there’s no way that communication across species would be as easy as shown on Star Trek. I think there would be a lot of situations like in the Darmok episode where metaphors, slang or cultural references are incomprehensible to an alien being I was just re-watching Star Trek: Deep Space Nine from the beginning and in the sixth episode, Miles O’Brien spends a lot of time with an alien named Tosk, from a previously unknown planet. As I remember, O’Brien used slang and cultural references without any problem. Somehow he was understood. But it wouldn’t be much of a show if every episode was held up by communications issues. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/52 "2023-10-09T22:52:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, how do you say “hand me that 9mm torque wrench” or anything technical. Replying to a 19 year old thread is hilarious, but not as funny as this. What a great way to illustrate the absurdity. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/53 "2023-10-10T00:38:56Z")
I never understood why this episode was so well loved. It’s not anywhere near the bottom, but it’s nowhere near the top either. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/54 "2023-10-10T09:19:37Z")
Well, it’s an _interesting_ episode, at least he first time you see it, especially contrasted with how ridiculously easy communication usually is on ST. Certainly, disparate people finding common ground through a shared challenge is a well-worn literary device, but i agree it doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. How did they every program a computer? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/55 "2023-10-10T13:11:50Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I never understood why this episode was so well loved. It’s not anywhere near the bottom, but it’s nowhere near the top either. In most _Trek_ episodes, the solution to the problem-of-the-week involves channeling anti-protons through the deflector dish, or some other technobabble. There’s no way that we in the audience can really participate in that. _Darmok_ is the rare episode where we get to share the experience along with the characters. We get to hear the Tamarian and language, and are just as confused by it as the characters on screen. As Picard deciphers what the other captain has been saying to him on the planet, his explanation makes sense to us, too. I’ve always felt that was the reason this episode is so popular. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/56 "2023-10-10T18:26:06Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Tamarian And just in case anybody here somehow has missed it, on _Lower Decks_ there is a Tamarian bridge officer. His interactions are generally comic, but in that way where he isn’t the butt of the joke. “Arnock on the night of his joining.” ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/57 "2023-10-10T18:46:00Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > “Arnock on the night of his joining.” That’s what she said. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/58 "2023-10-10T18:54:08Z")
One of the things I find interesting, or perhaps frustrating, about _Darmok_ is that the Enterprise crew seems to do all the work of understanding the Tamarians, and none vice versa. The Tamarians must be as confused by us as we are by them, but I don’t remember any attempts by them to change their allegorical language to suit us. It’s hardly the only _Trek_ episode to do that. I’ve not seen any of _Lower Decks_, but I’d be curious if that pattern continued. Does the Tamarian bridge officer make any attempt to speak English, does everyone else accommodate him speaking Tamarian, or something in between? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/59 "2023-10-10T18:57:19Z")
In Lower Decks, Kayshon generally communicates in “English” (Federation Standard) sprinkled liberally with Tamarian metaphors. The funny thing is, even when he uses new ones not from the Darmok collection, due to context it’s not hard to understand! ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761/60 "2023-10-10T19:03:24Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > does everyone else accommodate him speaking Tamarian, or something in between As @Dorjan says, he mostly speaks English, but sometimes the crew will practice their Tamarian with him. He’s mostly treated the way all of the bridge officers are. He shows up, has a brief and silly conversation with one of the main characters, and then is gone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-darmok-was-that-a-joke/277761.md?page=4)