# ST:TNG question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 15, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616 "2015-06-15T21:18:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/1 "2015-06-15T21:18:28Z")
I’m working my way through ST:TNG. I never saw the series all the way through when it was broadcast, though I did see the occasional episode then. Right now, I’m mostly through the 2nd season. In TNG, it seems the Romulans usually show up with their ships cloaked. I seem to recall an episode of TOS where Kirk had his ears pointed, infiltrated a Romulan ship, and stole a cloaking device for the Federation. So why hasn’t the Federation reverse engineered a cloaking device and installed one on the Enterprise and all other Galaxy Class (I think) spaceships? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/2 "2015-06-15T21:26:52Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I’m working my way through ST:TNG. I never saw the series all the way through when it was broadcast, though I did see the occasional episode then. Right now, I’m mostly through the 2nd season. > > In TNG, it seems the Romulans usually show up with their ships cloaked. I seem to recall an episode of TOS where Kirk had his ears pointed, infiltrated a Romulan ship, and stole a cloaking device for the Federation. So why hasn’t the Federation reverse engineered a cloaking device and installed one on the Enterprise and all other Galaxy Class (I think) spaceships? Because there’s been an arms race – or, rather an invisibility/sensor race. The Romulans invent a cloaking device, the Federation figures out a way to defeat it. The Romulans or Klingons improve that tech, the Federation and Cardassians improve their sensors. And so on. Picard’s Enterprise could easily defeat a cloaking device from Kirk’s era, just as it could have outpaced the fastest starship of that era. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/3 "2015-06-15T21:29:14Z")
There is a treaty which prohibits the Federation from developing cloaking technology. ETA: [The Treaty of Algeron.](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/4 "2015-06-15T21:30:15Z")
In addition to what His Skaldness has said above, the Federation and Romulan Empire have the [Treaty of Algeron](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron). Where the Feds, rather stupidly imho, agree to not research cloaking tech. This is actually a plot point for a later season episode. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/5 "2015-06-15T21:31:34Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I’m working my way through ST:TNG. I never saw the series all the way through when it was broadcast, though I did see the occasional episode then. Right now, I’m mostly through the 2nd season. > > In TNG, it seems the Romulans usually show up with their ships cloaked. I seem to recall an episode of TOS where Kirk had his ears pointed, infiltrated a Romulan ship, and stole a cloaking device for the Federation. So why hasn’t the Federation reverse engineered a cloaking device and installed one on the Enterprise and all other Galaxy Class (I think) spaceships? It was part of a peace treaty that the Federation was not allowed to have/use cloaking devices. Of course, there was a super-secret incident where they did have/use a cloaking device. Riker was the XO on the ship involved prior to his time on Enterprise. There was a mutiny, he sided with the Captain, order was restored, they used the cloaking device for something or other, and then he was sworn to secrecy–an oath he later broke in TNG because reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/6 "2015-06-15T21:40:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > In addition to what His Skaldness has said above, the Federation and Romulan Empire have the [Treaty of Algeron](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron). Where the Feds, rather stupidly imho, agree to not research cloaking tech. > > This is actually a plot point for a later season episode. I’ll fanwank the theory of Algeron. It was negotiated and signed in the aftermath of the Genesis incident from the 2nd and 3rd movies. Yes, we all know that Carol Marcus and Company intended the Genesis device for peaceful purposes, but I seriously doubt that the Romulans, Tholians, Klingons, and so forth bough that – especially since Genesis did not and apparently could not fulfill its stated purpose of creating habitable planets. To the Federation’s rivals, Genesis was thew ultimate weapon of mass destruction, capable of destroying an entire world _with one missile_. I expect the other major powers demanded either that everybody get the Genesis tech or that the Federation give up any claim to cloaking tech, or otherwise the Klingons and Romulans, at least, would declare war. Hell, **I’m** still not convinced that Starfleet’s motives were entirely pure. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/7 "2015-06-15T21:47:47Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > In addition to what His Skaldness has said above, the Federation and Romulan Empire have the [Treaty of Algeron](http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron). Where the Feds, rather stupidly imho, agree to not research cloaking tech. > > This is actually a plot point for a later season episode. Ah, okay. Then I guess I’m not the only person to ponder this. One wonders if Roddenberry knew this all along, or did he come up with it as needed? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/8 "2015-06-15T21:48:44Z")
There’s a 25 year gap between Genesis (2285) and the Treaty of Algeron (2311). That’s a pretty long gap of time for them to be related. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/9 "2015-06-15T21:53:48Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > There’s a 25 year gap between Genesis (2285) and the Treaty of Algeron (2311). That’s a pretty long gap of time for them to be related. How many times have I told you not to bother me with facts? Do you WANT me to Quantum Leap you into Prince Charles’ body? WHY DO YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME HURT Y’ALL? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/10 "2015-06-15T22:28:12Z")
Remember, DS9s Defiant is cloaked. Mostly for the Reason of Cool, but there’s some hand waving that the Romulans are only lending the cloak and are trading intelligence for it. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/11 "2015-06-15T22:35:43Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Remember, DS9s Defiant is cloaked. Mostly for the Reason of Cool, but there’s some hand waving that the Romulans are only lending the cloak and are trading intelligence for it. The Romulans made agreed to install a cloaking device on the Defiant on the conditions that; it only be used in the Gamma Quadrant, a Romulan officer be assigned to the Defiant with control over it, and Starfleet share any intelligence gathered in the Gamma Quadrant with the Tal Shiar. IIRC they quickly dropped the Romulan control officer, then of course the Defiant itself was destroyed and replaced by another ship with the same name. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/12 "2015-06-15T22:45:51Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > There’s a 25 year gap between Genesis (2285) and the Treaty of Algeron (2311). That’s a pretty long gap of time for them to be related. Not necessarily. I’m not sure how much we want to compare nuclear weapons treaties on Earth to the Genesis weapon, but if we did… The first treaty on nukes (the Nonproliferation Treaty) had its first signers in 1968, 23 years after the first nuclear weapons were used. And then it took two more years (until 1970) before the final parties signed on and it went into effect. This shows that 1) it took a really long time just to get all the signatures and 2) the final signatures were in fact 25 years after the first use of the weapon. Skald, feel free to teleport my share of the royalties on this fan-wank. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/13 "2015-06-15T23:18:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Skald, feel free to teleport my share of the royalties on this fan-wank. Would you settle for an empty envelope? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/14 "2015-06-16T02:18:56Z")
Although it’s never stated explicitly, I feel we can confidently conclude Jimmy Carter’s preserved-in-a-jar head was involved in negotiating the Treaty of Algeron. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/15 "2015-06-16T02:32:05Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Ah, okay. Then I guess I’m not the only person to ponder this. One wonders if Roddenberry knew this all along, or did he come up with it as needed? Yes ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/16 "2015-06-16T02:37:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Would you settle for an empty envelope? Are you implying that I can’t be trusted? ---
**Author:** ![Barking\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Barking\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Dog)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/17 "2015-06-16T03:58:39Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Are you implying that I can’t be trusted? Is the space pope a lizard? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/18 "2015-06-16T12:54:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you implying that I can’t be trusted? Aside from the truth value of that proposition, on which I will not comment, no, I was not deliberately making that implication. [I was making a different reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_No-Prize#Distribution). ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/19 "2015-06-16T13:01:43Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > The Romulans made agreed to install a cloaking device on the Defiant on the conditions that; it only be used in the Gamma Quadrant, a Romulan officer be assigned to the Defiant with control over it . . . If the Defiant was cloaked, couldn’t the Romulans use it anywhere, with anyone (or no one) having control over it? Who would know? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616/20 "2015-06-16T13:07:18Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Not necessarily. I’m not sure how much we want to compare nuclear weapons treaties on Earth to the Genesis weapon, but if we did… The first treaty on nukes (the Nonproliferation Treaty) had its first signers in 1968, 23 years after the first nuclear weapons were used. And then it took two more years (until 1970) before the final parties signed on and it went into effect. This shows that 1) it took a really long time just to get all the signatures and 2) the final signatures were in fact 25 years after the first use of the weapon. > > Skald, feel free to teleport my share of the royalties on this fan-wank. Fair enough, but the treaty is explicitly the result of the Tomed incident, and was basically an exchange; Federation doesn’t develop cloaking technology, Romulans stop mucking about outside of their territory. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-question/722616.md?page=2)