# ST: TNG Ranking Convention **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 10, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469 "2004-02-10T16:45:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/1 "2004-02-10T16:45:46Z")
So last night I was watching a rerun of ST: TNG with my brother. We started talking about the way that each rank is shown with those little circular things on their collars. Here’s what we managed to come up with from memory: 1 empty circle: Cadet 1 full circle: Ensign 1 full, 1 empty: 2nd Lieutenant 2 full: 1st Lieutenant 2 full, 1 empty: Lt. Commander 3 full: Commander 4 full: Captain In watching the show, it seems to me that everyone on the ship knows that Ryker outranks both Dr. Crusher and Troi (when she gets promoted to full commander late in the series), but an outsider wouldn’t be able to tell. This made me wonder: why didn’t they let Ryker wear 3 full circles and an empty one to show that he was 1st officer? My brother said he thought that it was reserved for the rank of Commodore(sp?), which was only used during wartime. Anyone have the Straight Dope about this? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/2 "2004-02-10T17:00:23Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > So last night I was watching a rerun of ST: TNG with my brother. We started talking about the way that each rank is shown with those little circular things on their collars. Here’s what we managed to come up with from memory: > > 1 empty circle: Cadet > 1 full circle: Ensign > 1 full, 1 empty: 2nd Lieutenant > 2 full: 1st Lieutenant > 2 full, 1 empty: Lt. Commander > 3 full: Commander > 4 full: Captain > > In watching the show, it seems to me that everyone on the ship knows that Ryker outranks both Dr. Crusher and Troi (when she gets promoted to full commander late in the series), but an outsider wouldn’t be able to tell. > > This made me wonder: why didn’t they let Ryker wear 3 full circles and an empty one to show that he was 1st officer? My brother said he thought that it was reserved for the rank of Commodore(sp?), which was only used during wartime. > > Anyone have the Straight Dope about this? I’m afraid you have your ranks mixed up. Starfleet uses naval ranks. There is no 2nd Lieutenant or 1st Lieutenant in naval ranks. The ranks are as follows: 1 silver pip: Ensign 1 silver pip and one black pip: Lieutenant, junior grade 2 silver pips: Lieutenant 2 silver pips and 1 black pip: Lieutenant commander 3 silver pips: Commander 4 silver pips: Captain. Cadets used a “bar” insignia. See the episodes where Wesley is in the Academy. Commodores outrank captains. It was dropped by the U.S. Navy a while ago. While the rank appears in TOS, it seems to be gone by TNG. Crusher, BTW, is a Commander and has equal rank with Riker. However, since Riker is the first officer and she is only a doctor (albeit one who can command the ship - she does it once or twice) he would overrule her on ship operations. Riker’s insignia is not changed because first officer is not a rank but a position (like Chief Engineer, Science Officer, Galactic Cheerleader… er, make that Ship’s Counselor). There is apparently no special insignia in TNG to denote a person’s duties on the ship. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/3 "2004-02-10T18:09:53Z")
Isn’t that why they call him ‘Mister’? Like Mister Spock and Mister Roberts. I thought the First Officer was called Mister to show that he outranked the other Commanders. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/4 "2004-02-10T18:28:26Z")
Actually, Spock was called Mister because no human could pronounce his first name. From _The Star Trek Encyclopedia_ by M. Okuda: 1 open circle = Chief Warrant Officer 1 full circle = Ensign 1 open, 1 full = Lieutenant (Junior Grade) 2 full = Lieutenant 2 full, 1 open = Lieutenant Commander 3 full = Commander 4 full = Captain There was a whole 'nother series for Admirals. It’s on page 211 of that book, btw… ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/5 "2004-02-10T18:35:52Z")
TOS had emroidery for rank and division. Divisions (such as Command, Medical, Engineering) were shown by the patch on the left breast of the shirt/tunic/scamp. Actual rank was signified by sleeve braiding which varied slightly among the divisions. Commodore was above Captain in the Command Division. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/6 "2004-02-11T00:06:42Z")
So there is no rank that has three full and one empty? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/7 "2004-02-11T00:13:24Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > So there is no rank that has three full and one empty? According to the ref books I have, no. However, there may have been an episode where someone wore that and it didn’t make it into anything written. I wouldn’t know where to begin looking. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/8 "2004-02-11T00:29:49Z")
What about uniform colours? What’s that all about? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/9 "2004-02-11T00:30:22Z")
There is no convention in place to differentiate between that of First Officer and any other commander on the ship. As a crewmember, you’re just expected to know and as an outsider, it’s really not that important that you do unless it’s your business to. Enlisted officers (Petty Officers, Warrant Officers, etc) use chevrons to denote their rank. Admirals (I’m not sure if they use Rear and Vice designations in Trek) use pips that’re surrounded by rectangles and are worn on both sides of the collar and Commodore simply refers to someone that is in charge of a battle fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/10 "2004-02-11T00:34:15Z")
Red uniforms denote command line officers. To be a Captain, you must be in Command, obviously. Yellow denotes Engineering, Security, and Operations. Anything dealing with the well being of the ship itself is taken care of by these departments. Blue (or green) is Sciences and Medical. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/11 "2004-02-11T01:05:04Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Red uniforms denote command line officers. To be a Captain, you must be in Command, obviously. > > Yellow denotes Engineering, Security, and Operations. Anything dealing with the well being of the ship itself is taken care of by these departments. > > Blue (or green) is Sciences and Medical. And in this case, red/maroon and yellow were reversed from their meanings in the 1960s original. Also, a Line officer may be assigned to an operations or science department as his work billet, while retaining chain-of-command authority – e.g. Data in TNG(Head of both Ops and Science), or Spock in TOS(Ship’s XO + Science Dept. head) . The “Mister” designation is a take on a traditional Anglo-American naval form of informally addressing officers up to Cmdr/LtCmdr rank who are not actually skippering the ship. Thus Mr. Data, Mr. Spock, Mr. Scott, Mr. Worf, Mr. LaForge, Mr. Sulu, Mr. Chekov, “Mister” Saavik. No, there’s no 3+1 rank insignia in TNG and later, since their model is the modern US/UK navies which do not use a pair of senior/junior captain ranks. There _are_ several modern NATO navies that do use a “3 and a half” stripe pattern for a junior rank of captain, but that does not appear in TNG. (BTW Commodore lives on in the Royal Navy; but the US, Russian, French, etc. go straight from Captain to Rear Admiral) Enlisted-men insignia does not actually appear in Trek until very late – we only get to have a good look at it when O’Brien (Colm Meany) is given a more prominent role in DS9. (Originally, Roddenberry had proposed that since everyone in Starfleet would have to be spaceflight-trained and highly educated, they would all be of officer class. So they had never even worked it out) ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/12 "2004-02-11T01:10:03Z")
Pardon me if my memory is mistaken, but… I believe Q often appeared in red command uniform with 5 pips, the rank of Commodore. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/13 "2004-02-11T01:25:13Z")
Also, the Number One title given to Riker by Picard refers to his status as the Executive Officer. It’s a nod to TOS wherein Majel Barrett (the future Mrs Roddenberry, Lwaxana Troi, and voice of Starfleet computers) was to be the first officer and would only be known as Number One. And while Q may have showed up with five pips, that was not meant to imply he was a Commodore. Most likey, it meant he was making himself an Admiral since Commodores no longer exist in the Starfleet of the 24th Century. I’ve not noticed how Enterprise does ranks. Has anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/14 "2004-02-11T01:28:31Z")
I forgot to mention in my last post that while the five pips Admiral is obviously different from the current four pips in a bar Admiral, it’s most likely just a cosmetic change, much like the continuing uniform changes of the fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Catalyst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@Catalyst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catalyst)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/15 "2004-02-11T01:39:45Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > Pardon me if my memory is mistaken, but… I believe Q often appeared in red command uniform with 5 pips, the rank of Commodore. I’m fairly certain that Q wore the uniform of a starship captain. > [@](#): > > In his early appearances Q had tried to intimidate the Starfleet crews he met with rapid changes in costume, mostly from Earth history: appearing variously as an Elizabethan-era naval captain, a United States World War II Marine general, a post-nuclear Holocaust drug soldier and judge, an Aldebaran serpent, a Starfleet admiral in dress uniform, a Napoleonic French marshal, a Starfleet commander, a monk, an angle, and a deaf elderly man; eventually he came to prefer a simple contemporary Starfleet captain’s tunic. [Cite.](http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/characters/TNG/bio/1112478.html) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/16 "2004-02-11T02:47:04Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Red uniforms denote command line officers. To be a Captain, you must be in Command, obviously. I’m not so certain of that. I’m fairly sure you can have JAGs, doctors, etc. who earn the rank of Captain (equal to a Colonel in army parlance). Whether or not they actually command ships would be another story, but I’m fairly certain that one could actually be a Captain (or Admiral) without actually being a command line officer. For a real-world example, John Cardinal O’Connor was an admiral in the Naval Reserves - as a chaplain. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/17 "2004-02-11T02:54:06Z")
Well, in “All Good Things…”, Crusher commanded a medical ship (the Curie?) as a Doctor but that wasn’t a typical vessel, obviously and you do see some Admirals of other branches (McCoy in "Encounter at Farpoint I was an Admiral, I think) but I believe Starfleet only allows command track officers to actually captain a ship. The only way I can think of to check this would be to look at the turtleneck of Spock’s uniform in _Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan_. If it’s the same color as Kirk’s, it’s obvious he had to change departments to command. If it’s the same color as McCoy’s, he’s still in Sciences. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/18 "2004-02-11T03:01:06Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Commodores outrank captains. It was dropped by the U.S. Navy a while ago. According to a buddy of mine who used to be in the U.S. Navy, Commodore was dropped soon after World War II, but **just recently** the Navy started using the rank of Commodore again. During the time that Commodore wasn’t used, Rear Admirals were divided into “Lower Echelon” and “Upper Echelon”. Rear Admiral, Lower Echelon was pretty much equivalent to Commodore. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/19 "2004-02-11T03:32:34Z")
And here I thought this thread would be a “convention” to rank the ST:TNG episodes. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469/20 "2004-02-11T13:42:24Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Well, in “All Good Things…”, Crusher commanded a medical ship (the Curie?) as a Doctor but that wasn’t a typical vessel, obviously and you do see some Admirals of other branches (McCoy in "Encounter at Farpoint I was an Admiral, I think) but I believe Starfleet only allows command track officers to actually captain a ship. > > The only way I can think of to check this would be to look at the turtleneck of Spock’s uniform in _Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan_. If it’s the same color as Kirk’s, it’s obvious he had to change departments to command. If it’s the same color as McCoy’s, he’s still in Sciences. Right: there is the _rank_ of Captain (in the modern military, equivalent to a colonel in the land forces) and the _title_ of “captain”, which is the commanding officer of a vessel afloat. In the real-world navies, the CO of a ship is always a Line Officer, for the simple reason the modern navies do NOT train doctors, shrinks, chaplains and lawyers on how to handle a ship (unlike TNG Starfleet as established in several eps). Obviously, have a large enough branch and you will have admirals. re: TWOK – both Kirk and Spock wear white dickies. BTW, the ST-II thru VI movies created a complicated set of corps/branch colors, which TNG re-simplified. In the case of TOS’s Mr. Spock, though his specialty is Science by personal preference, he is apparently an unrestricted line officer all along (he’s the XO in the TV series, and in the pilot he’s the “bridge guy in charge of repeating what the captain commands”, whatever the Navy calls that. Re: Commodores – here again, there is both a rank of Commodore and a _title_ of “commodore”, which may be given to a senior Captain in charge of a multi-ship mission or command. During the Reagan admin., the US navy revived the rank of one-star “Commodore Admiral”, but in the Bush-I years went back to having two grades of Rear Admiral. Traditionally in the post-Civil War US Navy, in peacetime there would be no rank of Commodore but the junior half of the RADMs would be _paid_ at the O-7 grade (equiv. 1-star Brigadier General), and the senior half at the O-8 grade (equiv. 2-star Major General), but they’d all wear 2 stars. In the 1990s the RADM(L) was made to be indeed a 1-star rank as well as an O-7 grade, wearing the insignia of the former Commodore. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st-tng-ranking-convention/228469.md?page=2)