# ST2: The Wrath of Khan on the big screen **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [September 5, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002 "2022-09-05T15:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/21 "2022-09-06T05:33:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > One of the problems I do have with the movie is that we are TOLD, many times, that Khan is a genetically engineered superhuman, with incredible intelligence. **We never see it.** Movies should show, not tell, and Khan really doesn’t come off as brilliant. He gets the drop on Kirk in the first space battle but it’s an incredibly simple ruse that only worked because Kirk was lazy and complacent, and Kirk IMMEDIATELY fools Khan to switch the situation. Later Khan does manage to slip two mind-controlled assassins into Kirk’s party, thus allowing him to locate and steal Genesis, but it only half works and, again, it’s not really some sort of brilliant plan. All the brilliance in the world is useless without sufficient inputs and data. The true danger in this situation was that Khan would have enough time to learn Starfleet’s tactics, order of battle, standard contingency plans, etc. And he wouldn’t have needed very much time, because with his intelligence he was an incredibly fast learner. Khan’s problem was that he was in a situation where all the raw intelligence in the world was no match for (competent) hands-on experience. Now, if Khan had been facing an incompetent commander, he might have won anyway. But Kirk made sure that Khan did not have enough time to learn what he needed to learn. Therefore, Khan’s defeat was genuinely inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/22 "2022-09-06T06:31:58Z")
I was confused by the original TV episode, whenever they referred to the Botany Bay. I couldn’t figure out how they ended up on just _part_ of a spaceship. It being the part with the plants made sense, so they’d have oxygen and could grow food, but why would the botany bay have it’s own warp drive? Where’d the rest of the ship go? Wasn’t until years later that I learned that there was a town called Botany Bay, and they were on a whole ship that was named after it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/23 "2022-09-06T08:36:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > > Khan has got to be in the top 5 of OG movie villains. > > Montalban is terrific and Khan’s single mindedness works extremely well. > > One of the problems I do have with the movie is that we are TOLD, many times, that Khan is a genetically engineered superhuman, with incredible intelligence. **We never see it.** Movies should show, not tell, and Khan really doesn’t come off as brilliant. He gets the drop on Kirk in the first space battle but it’s an incredibly simple ruse that only worked because Kirk was lazy and complacent, and Kirk IMMEDIATELY fools Khan to switch the situation. Later Khan does manage to slip two mind-controlled assassins into Kirk’s party, thus allowing him to locate and steal Genesis, but it only half works and, again, it’s not really some sort of brilliant plan. > > It’s still a great movie but it’s a shame they couldn’t work in some way to show Khan being brilliant, because that makes his obsession all the more interesting as a character flaw, as it would allow for the classic story of a tragic flow overwhelming the character’s strengths. Twice we see Joachim try to get Khan to see reason, and twice Khan just refuses to, but in the absence of his alleged genius it kind of takes away from the impact of that. “Genius” like going from “marooned on dead planet” to taking over and commandeering an interstellar warship built over 250 years after he was born and then stealing what is effectively that civilization’s “Manhattan Project” within a few days? I mean keep in mind that Kirk and Spock and the rest of the crew aren’t dummies either. “Khan, I’m laughing at the superior intellect.” - James T Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/24 "2022-09-06T10:21:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > One of the problems I do have with the movie is that we are TOLD, many times, that Khan is a genetically engineered superhuman, with incredible intelligence. I always figured the “superior intelligence” thing was largely bullshit anyways. Working with “Star Trek is always a metaphor for the 20th Century”, I assumed the Genetic Wars were largely a metaphor for racism and white supremacy. These guys told themselves, and everyone else, that they were “destined to rule” because they were just so much smarter than everyone else, just like White people did for several centuries. But when push came to shove, that was just them deluding themselves. Sure, maybe they had a few better genes for strength, or health, but no one really knows the genetics behind intelligence. That’s a big part of what makes racism so stupid. It really doesn’t take much brains to be ruthlessly self-centered, and that’s the most important attribute for taking over the world. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/25 "2022-09-06T12:27:06Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > Khan’s problem was that he was in a situation where all the raw intelligence in the world was no match for (competent) hands-on experience. Kirk even mentions that. Scotty says he gave as good as he got after the first battle. Kirk retorts that he did no such thing, he merely knew something about Federation ships that Khan didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/26 "2022-09-06T13:13:27Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > Khan’s problem was that he was in a situation where all the raw intelligence in the world was no match for (competent) hands-on experience. That part - illustrated in both the first battle and Mutara Nebula - was very well written. We DO see, over and over, Kirk using experience and knowledge to beat Khan: 1. Using command access codes to get a shot in in the first battle 2. Using trickery and wordplay and knowing his enemy will intercept his transmissions to trick Khan into thinking Enterprise cannot repair itself quickly 3. Outsmarting Khan in the Mutara Nebula Which of course is a twist on the overarching theme of Act One, which is Kirk’s despair at growing old. His age is effectively what saves him and his crew. Again, though, to that point we are TOLD Khan is smart, not shown. Movies are always better when they show, not tell. It’s a small criticism, but it’s there. > [@Horatius](#): > > I always figured the “superior intelligence” thing was largely bullshit anyways. Working with “Star Trek is always a metaphor for the 20th Century”, I assumed the Genetic Wars were largely a metaphor for racism and white supremacy. Yeah, I always got that sense too. Khan was really, honestly supposed to be genetically engineered - that is deeply embedded on multiple levels of canon, across multiple shows. But his ATTITUDE is the problem, and I really like the idea that he might be less actually superior than he likes to believe. The allegory of racism is impossible to miss, though never said out loud, which is allegory of the very best sort (and the kind just totally missed in “Star Trek Into Darkness.”) ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/27 "2022-09-06T13:20:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But his ATTITUDE is the problem, and I really like the idea that he might be less actually superior than he likes to believe. And on the “show, don’t tell issue”, above, it’s mentioned that Khan did manage to take over the Reliant, which suggests that he is smart. Except, does it really _show_ that? The plan worked because Khan put the Brain Slugs in Chekhov and the Captain. Brain Slugs that evolved on the planet completely outside of Khan’s control. The only reason Khan knew about the Brain Slugs is because they lost many of their crew to Brain Slug infestation during their early days on the planet. So the only thing Khan had to do was notice that the Brain Slugs produced a period of suggestibility in their victims, and then be ruthless enough to actually use that in order to take over the Reliant. Once he had the Captain under his control, taking over the rest of the ship would have been a simple matter of issuing the right commands to get Khan’s people on board the ship. Khan’s entire plan doesn’t even exist if the Brain Slugs didn’t just happen to exist in exactly the right place. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/28 "2022-09-06T13:31:06Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Khan’s entire plan doesn’t even exist if the Brain Slugs didn’t just happen to exist in exactly the right place. I mean, it was still an opportunity to demonstrate his intelligence if you show his employing a really tricky plan to fool people into letting him get hold of the ship. Or show us how swiftly he can learn to control a starship. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/29 "2022-09-06T13:52:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I do run into people who defend the idea that Star Fleet isn’t a military organizing by comparing it to the United States Coast Guard, never mind that the USCG is one of the branches of the Armed Forces… I believe the Coast Guard’s main purpose was rescuing people until they began catching German spies and looking for submarines in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/30 "2022-09-06T13:55:09Z")
Khan’s speech about the brain slugs is one of the best deliveries in cinema. And as for genetics, I guess Nurture can mitigate Nature. Khan probably spent his whole life being told he was the ne plus ultra of evolution. This made him very susceptible to underestimating his foes while overestimating his capabilities. Doesn’t matter how high-octane your DNA is if you’ve been poorly raised to believe your own propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/31 "2022-09-06T14:01:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > We DO see, over and over, Kirk using experience and knowledge to beat Khan: > > 1. Using command access codes to get a shot in in the first battle > 2. Using trickery and wordplay and knowing his enemy will intercept his transmissions to trick Khan into thinking Enterprise cannot repair itself quickly > 3. Outsmarting Khan in the Mutara Nebula How much of #2 and #3 was Kirk, rather than Spock? (And how much of #4: making sure the crew survives?) ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/32 "2022-09-06T14:07:22Z")
Spock provided the analysis in the Mutara Nebula. Kirk made the decisions based on that. But I liked how even though the movie finally acknowledged the third dimension in space, it still treated the combat as two-dimensional. The Enterprise didn’t dive and swoop around like in a dogfight. It dropped like it was on an elevator, maintaining the same orientation to the plane as the Reliant. It was more like submarine warfare. And poo on Roddenbury and his “Starfleet is not the military” mantra. He was trying to have his cake and eat it too. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/33 "2022-09-06T14:13:32Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Mentally I switch Chekov’s and Sulu’s roles. Yes we all know Chekov was not in _Space Seed_ with Khan (so Khan and him remembering each other doesn’t work) This is a pointless nitpick. There’s nothing in _Space Seed_ that shows that Chekov _wasn’t_ there and that Khan _didn’t_ meet him. It’s not like the episode depicted every waking moment on the Enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/34 "2022-09-06T14:16:19Z")
All this talk about the movie not showing Khan’s superintelligence, I wonder how much of his intelligence was overwritten by insanity while on Ceti Alpha V? Also, Khan’s intelligence gave way to his need for revenge as ST2 is a sci-fi retelling of Moby Dick. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/35 "2022-09-06T14:17:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Or show us how swiftly he can learn to control a starship. This. To be honest, I’m about Khan’s age in the film, and I couldn’t figure out how to run a starship\* in a short time, even with access to the full tech manual package. And I’m pretty s-m-r-t. (To be honest again, Starships, even in Kirk’s time, should have security. Anything requiring access to weapons, controls, transporters, certain the systems, should be code locked to the on-duty staff. It wouldn’t have prevented Khan from taking over the Reliant, see: brain slugs, but it would in other cases.) It never occurred to me but I like the idea that Khan’s superior intellect isn’t as superior as he thinks. That his ego is also genetically engineered to match his physique. Most times, he probably IS the smartest guy in the room, providing the room isn’t _too_ big, \*well, maybe 1701-D. “Computer, Plot a course to Regula One.” “Computed.” “Engage” ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/36 "2022-09-06T14:20:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s not like the episode depicted every waking moment on the Enterprise. I like the fanwank that Chekov was holding up the turbolift as Khan was on his way to take over the ship, and he never forgets! ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/37 "2022-09-06T14:22:36Z")
Like I said, the other reason I switch Sulu and Chekov is Sulu is much more likely to be an XO and Chekov as a helmsman. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/38 "2022-09-06T14:22:46Z")
Not just a town—it was a penal colony where the British dumped their convicts. In those days, Australia might just as well have been on the far side of the Moon. Stealing a loaf of bread was enough to get you shipped overseas in the 18th and 19th centuries. Before Australia was discovered, convicts and rebels were transported to North America, among other places. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/39 "2022-09-06T14:25:59Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Like I said, the other reason I switch Sulu and Chekov is Sulu is much more likely to be an XO and Chekov as a helmsman. Sez who? Are you a member of the Starfleet administrative staff? (No, because Starfleet is fictional. You have no idea which is more likely.) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/40 "2022-09-06T14:27:29Z")
In the first movie, Chekov was the _Enterprise_’s Weapons Officer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002.md?page=3)