# ST2: The Wrath of Khan on the big screen **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [September 5, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002 "2022-09-05T15:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/61 "2022-09-06T20:14:51Z")
In the film, it was explicitly stated that _Reliant_’s crew were marooned on Ceti Alpha V. In the novelization, it was stated that a few of them remained in the engine room, controlled by eels. Khan’s men only had to kill a few people who were particularly noncooperative. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/62 "2022-09-06T20:37:28Z")
Sorry, I fixed the title. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/63 "2022-09-06T22:54:31Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > You’re not too far off – there was a book written later (_Kobayashi Maru_ maybe?) that included a bit of an explanation where Khan meets Chekov while the latter is on the **night shift**. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/RPHwvodJ19w/maxresdefault.jpg "Quarterflash - Night Shift (1982)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPHwvodJ19w) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/64 "2022-09-06T23:31:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Spock had a hand in all three, of course. But, see, that kinda muddies the idea of framing Khan’s braggadocio as being like unto a racist’s unfounded claims before a big comeuppance; when push came to shove, the self-proclaimed enhanced man of the Eugenics Wars failed to even take the enemy ship down with his own while matching wits with a guy who had no genetic enhancements: mere human Jim Kirk, who (a) laughs at the ostensibly superior intellect, and who (b) only had the help of — uh, Amanda Grayson’s all-grown-up superkid? You know, the one who done got all them Vulcan genes for strength and smarts? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/65 "2022-09-07T00:29:10Z")
Let’s not stare too deeply into the deep well of plot holes., Remember, there wouldn’t have been a _Wrath of Khan_ in the first place if Marla McGivers hadn’t had a change of heart and freed Kirk from the decompression chamber so Kirk could face Kahn in engineering and knock him unconscious with a cheap, flimsy plastic rod. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/66 "2022-09-07T03:25:26Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > a cheap, flimsy plastic rod. That was a space belaying pin. It’s like a regular belaying pin, but in SPAAAACE! You never know when you need to belay…something. We wouldn’t even have a story at all if McGivers had remembered her duty. But you can say the same about Dr. Dehner. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/67 "2022-09-07T12:24:38Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > and knock him unconscious with a cheap, flimsy plastic rod. That was no cheap, flimsy plastic rod - it was an inanimate carbon rod! ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/68 "2022-09-07T14:11:12Z")
Kirk’s natural rod beats Khan’s genetically-enhanced rod. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/69 "2022-09-07T14:31:29Z")
> [@simster](#): > > it was an inanimate carbon rod! And it was keeping the engines from running wild. Kirk was taking a big risk by removing it, even for a short time. But, as we saw, nothing bad happened. The engines didn’t explode, but they did take their bikes downtown, got some super frozen squishies, tipped over some garbage cans, and got tattoos. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/70 "2022-09-07T14:41:06Z")
That rod is important! It regulates the steam pressure in the matter / antimatter combiner: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Jnk25SnMelI/hqdefault.jpg "Star Trek Bloopers Rare Gag Reel") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnk25SnMelI) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/71 "2022-09-07T15:09:57Z")
I’m pretty sure his early writings had some sort of weird conception of Starfleet as some sort of non-military organization that only fulfilled the defense role _in extremis_. But all the old adages about where there’s smoke, there’s fire, if it walks like a duck, etc… would seem to apply. Military rank structure? Check. Uniforms? Check. Armed starships? Check. Separate Starfleet code of law/legal structure? Check. How is an organization with all that stuff NOT a military organization? It always struck me as very similar to the Royal Navy in the 17th-19th centuries, or like some of the US Navy’s oceanographic endeavors. The organizations perform a dual role- in peacetime they do stuff like sending the _HMS Beagle_ to go survey parts of the world, or the \*HMS Discovery" and Capt. George Vancouver’s expedition to map the North American Pacific coast. Or the US Navy’s seafloor mapping expeditions. But during wartime/threats to the ship, it’s beat to quarters and "“No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy.” Which is _exactly_ what we see in the various movies and TV shows. > [@RickJay](#): > > In Wrath of Khan - and of course the TOS episode they clearly learned from, Balance of Terror - the ships act like WARSHIPS. Detection and getting a first shot off is everything. Actually being hit by weapons fire is extremely consequential. I’d say it’s about equal parts submarine warfare and Age of Sail/Napoleonic combat. The first battle struck me as much more like _HMS Shannon_ vs. _USS Chesapeake_ than anything else as the ships traded blows with phasers, while the Mutara Nebula fight was much more of a submarine warfare fight. But yeah, I agree- the combat shouldn’t be modeled after fighters- it would be more like they did in Wrath of Khan, or “Yesterday’s Enterprise”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/72 "2022-09-07T15:50:21Z")
When I was growing up, the two gold standard movies for space combat were WoK and Return of the Jedi. The former for capital ship combat, the latter for fighter-based combat. Still not much out there that’s better. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/73 "2022-09-07T15:58:43Z")
Roddenberry pitched _Star Trek_ as “_Wagon Train_ to the stars” but he also specifically described Kirk (actually, at the time it was Robert April) as “Horatio Hornblower in space.” Even if he wanted to stay away from the militaristic aspects of it, the very format made it inevitable. Even Wagon Train had its share of battle with the natives. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/74 "2022-09-07T17:00:12Z")
When Terrell tells Kirk Khan blames him for the death of his wife Kirk responds “I know what he blame me for.” What does he think that is? Kirk doesn’t know about Ceti Alpha VI. As far has knows he left Khan on a “habitable, although a bit savage, somewhat inhospitable” planet. Khan’s last words are " I’ve gotten something else I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build." These are not the words of somebody threatening revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/75 "2022-09-07T17:35:20Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > When Terrell tells Kirk Khan blames him for the death of his wife Kirk responds “I know what he blame me for.” What does he think that is? In reality, it’s probably dialog left over from an earlier draft. Because, as you note, it makes no sense. Kirk doesn’t even know C-A5’s condition, nor what happened to “his wife” (we all assume it’s McGivers, but the dialog is strangely silent on the identify of said wife.) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/76 "2022-09-07T18:35:03Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > we all assume it’s McGivers, but the dialog is strangely silent on the identify of said wife. Not really, but it’s in a deleted scene. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/77 "2022-09-07T19:29:57Z")
Kirk just assumes he knows what Khan blames him for. That’s SOP for JTK. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/78 "2022-09-07T19:32:20Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Kirk just assumes he knows what Khan blames him for. Indeed; it could well be, “I know he blames me for dumping him and his people on BFE Ceti Alpha V.” ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/79 "2022-09-07T19:36:40Z")
Or, Kirk figures Kahn blames him for taking away his shot at ruling the galaxy… ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002/80 "2022-09-07T19:44:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Not really, but it’s in a deleted scene. Just like Scotty’s nephew. They really should have added these scenes back in for the DVD/Bluray. Come on, people, it’s Star Trek! We’d buy both versions! [![](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/574/takemymoney.jpg) ](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/574/takemymoney.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/st2-the-wrath-of-khan-on-the-big-screen/971002.md?page=5)