# staff vs staffs vs stave vs staves **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 21, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659 "2003-05-21T22:11:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/1 "2003-05-21T22:11:43Z")
Is “staves” the plural of “staff”? (And, by the way, I am talking about the music notation term, not a group of employees). In the Straight Dope Staff Report they seem to be interchangeable: “Staffs once had as few as four lines and as many as six. Standardization of staves at five lines began in the 16th century.” [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmusicnotes.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmusicnotes.html) I have some staff paper that says on the bottom “12 stave” on the bottom, suggesting the singular is “stave”. Are “stave” and “staff” actually two different things? ---
**Author:** ![Jabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@Jabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jabba)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/2 "2003-05-21T22:26:35Z")
_Chambers Dictionary_ gives both ‘staffs’ and ‘staves’ as correct plurals of ‘staff’ and ‘stave’ as an alternative for ‘staff’ in a musical context. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/3 "2003-05-21T22:31:14Z")
“Stave” is a slightly arcane word for “staff”, and they can both be used in the singular and plural. ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/4 "2003-05-21T22:33:01Z")
In my experience, though, real-life musical usage tends toward **staff-staves**. ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/5 "2003-05-21T22:34:09Z")
**12-stave manuscript paper** being an oddity, of course. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/6 "2003-05-21T22:38:33Z")
Sorry shoulf of been clearer in Music you can have “a stave” and “staves” but you can also use the word stave in excatly the same way you would use the word staff when describing a wooden stick. ---
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/7 "2003-05-21T23:27:13Z")
I checked the OED. It says staffs is plural for all meanings except musical staff and barrel staff, which are both usually staves. ---
**Author:** ![Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Moo\_the\_Magic\_Cow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moo_the_Magic_Cow)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/8 "2003-05-25T05:02:39Z")
Staff staves dwarf dwarves elf elves. Some like to say elfs dwarfs and staffs but it sounds terrible to me. ---
**Author:** ![mahatmacoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7feea3/32.png) [@mahatmacoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mahatmacoat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/9 "2003-05-26T08:17:09Z")
But can you staff off a stave infection? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/10 "2003-05-26T13:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jpeg Jones \* > \*\ ***12-stave manuscript paper** being an oddity, of course. \*\* Not at all. It’s commonly used in classic orchestral music, like symphonies. ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staff-vs-staffs-vs-stave-vs-staves/176659/11 "2003-05-27T21:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Not at all. It’s commonly used in classic orchestral music, like symphonies. I meant the _usage_ of the word **stave**. Grammatically, it should probably be 12-_staff_ manuscript paper. :rolleyes: