# Stairway to Heaven IS Tolkien related!! (LONG) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 20, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927 "2002-07-20T03:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![NewUser1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NewUser1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewUser1)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/41 "2002-07-21T19:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Emotions in this thread seem to be running a bit high. I would ask that it be toned down a bit by our new friends before this gets into Pit territory. point taken Now… Captain Amazing’s explanation was indeed interesting (I had thought of the Virgin Mary as a possibility for the “Lady”), and yet, even ignoring the Tolkien references in the previous song Captain’s interpretation had enough problems. In Captain’s interpretation, the main line of the song is quoted as “buying a stairway to heaven”, instead of referencing the Lady as buying it. Therefore, the selling indulgences makes very little sense. And given this explanation, much of the rest of the song makes little sense. Anyway how can he have not heard stairway, I think his explanation is disqualified on those grounds. J/K Wendel: mostly read the rest of my posts? Johnny LA’s interpretation is the most fascinating interpretation that I have seen. Ignoring the specific Tolkien references in the songs previous and post. Although it negates much of what I have said, I concede to a possibility of this view. That is some good interpreting there. Only a few criticisms such as why does the last line of the song insure us again that “She is buying a stairway to heaven” It doesn’t seem she has really changed. And some parts seem a stretch but I guess not more than some parts of my interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![NewUser1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NewUser1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NewUser1)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/42 "2002-07-21T19:48:23Z")
Oh sorry Wendel, there were a few unadressed things, hold on. Such as “If there’s a bustle in your hedgerow, don’t be alarmed now, it’s just a spring clean for the May queen.” I forgot to address this, I always figured it was tom’s wife who is likened to mother nature and is specificlly said to be doing Spring Cleaning or some such by Tom. again not a reference to Galadriel, just LotR Also I always asumed that the words you and I were just neutral references that could be applied and not narrator/audience titles. I mean the narration speakes directly to the lady as well as in third person of her. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/43 "2002-07-21T21:27:35Z")
NewUser1 writes: \> I forgot to address this, I always figured it was tom’s wife who \> is likened to mother nature and is specificlly said to be doing \> Spring Cleaning or some such by Tom. again not a reference to \> Galadriel, just LotR Where does it say that Goldberry, Tom Bombadil’s wife, is like Mother Nature? I want a specific reference in _The Lord of the Rings_, not just a oh-well-you-know-it’s-in-there-somewhere. Why is Galadriel the May queen, and why is Goldberry doing the spring cleaning (whatever you take that to be) particularly for her? \> Also I always asumed that the words you and I were just \> neutral references that could be applied and not \> narrator/audience titles. \> I mean the narration speakes directly to the lady as well as in \> third person of her. That’s just the vagueness I was speaking of. Sometimes in your interpretation the song seems to be addressing the lady: “Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow . . .” Sometimes the song sounds like the lady addressing the audience: “There’s a feeling I get when I look to the west . . .” Sometimes it seems to be addressing a person who knows about the story: “There’s a lady we all know . . .” Who’s the narrator of the song? A character from Tolkien? A person retelling the story of the book? Whose head is humming and it won’t go? Who is the piper calling to join him? Those two lines are next to each other but I can’t figure out any way in your interpretation they can be addressed to the same person. You haven’t answered any of my questions. To convince us, you’re going to have to go line by line through the song interpreting it, and, no, you haven’t done that. All you’ve done is interpret a few random lines, and you haven’t even done it in a consistent way. ---
**Author:** ![TelcontarStorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ab097/32.png) [@TelcontarStorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TelcontarStorm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/44 "2002-07-21T23:59:51Z")
Stupid Idea #1. “Piper Calling you to join him.” Strider was pulling on a pipe when Frodo rolled under his chair in Bree. Stupid Idea #2. “May Queen” Who’s Being preparede for. Arwen Undomiel. Gladriel was the Morning Star… Arwen the “Evening Star” of The ElvES Stupid Idea #3. “Your head is humming and it won’t go.” Smeagol or Gollum, who’s stairway to destruction, the same as Frodo’s lay in the wind of Mount Doom, no doubt the whispers of the Orcs echoed. Mind you, I ain’t buying into this Tolkien stuff… No doubt JRR is giggling at us for displaying the behaviour he stated in his intro to LotR, he abhored. But in allowing a reader (or listener?) to come to thier own conclution was something he loved. FWIW, I think Johnny L.A.'s explaination closest to the truth. I always figgured the song to be about a spoiled Bimbo. ---
**Author:** ![Mephisto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@Mephisto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mephisto)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/45 "2002-07-22T00:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rastahomie \* > \*\*I’ve always understood that _Stairway to Heaven_ was a hodgepodge of references to Celtic mythology, with no real cohesion or meaning. Robert Plant has said as much in interviews. > > That Tolkien used similar mythos in the LotR books means that the two are going to have parallels, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the _Stairway_ is based on LotR. \*\* I’ve read things very similar to this. Originally STH was supposed to be an instrumental, but when Page first played it for Plant, Plant started writing down words in a notebook, basically just making it up as he went along without putting any real thought into it. This is described in _Hammer of the Gods_, a book about Led Zeppelin. I tried to find this book (very interesting, and it _seems_ accurate) to quote the relevant passages, but unfortunately the book disappeared in my last move or got ate by gremlins or something. Of course Plant had all that imagery he wrote down in his head already, so . . . I suspect the book-song parallels are a happy coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/46 "2002-07-22T02:43:21Z")
Even if we accept that Galadriel was using her Ring to “buy” a stairway to Heaven, she wasn’t doing it with gold. Galadriel’s ring was of silver, _which is never mentioned in the song_. And Galadriel is absolutely, positively, not the “Lady of Light” in Tolkien. I don’t know who (if anyone, in particular) Page is referring to with that, but the Lady of Light in Tolkien’s works is Varda. And don’t get too excited about the fact that there **is** a lady of light in Tolkien, because there’s a Lady of Light in every single piece of fantasy or mythological literature that’s ever been written. Maybe it’s Venus, or Titania, or Mary, or the Corn Mother, or anyone else at all. And I independently came to the same general conclusion as **Johnny L.A.** and **TelcontarStorm** the first time I heard the song, too. I can’t imagine why it’s such a popular pastimes to think of less obvious explanations than “spoiled rich bitch”. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/47 "2002-07-22T04:24:28Z")
What does “And there’s a wino down the road” have to do with Tolkien? 😃 As a big Zeppelin fan and someone who’s not been exposed to Tolkien, I’ve always understood and assumed that many of Plant’s lyrics were Tolkien-esque. Not necessarily about them. Both Tolkien and Plant probably drew from the same source. Someone else mentioned this earlier. There is no right or wrong interpretation on stuff like this. That’s what makes it so much fun. The idea that there is a right/wrong interpretation is what ruined many lit classes for high school students. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/48 "2002-07-22T04:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NewUser1 \* > **FACT: Aragorn was the heir to the throne of Gondor whos strength was represented by the horn of gondor who after becoming king rekindles an era of peace and reason. “And it’s whispered that soon if we all call the tune Then the piper will lead us to reason.” Which means that if they all follow Aragorn…the piper… then a new day will come. "And a new day will dawn for those who stand long And the forests will echo with laughter."** Ahem. Pipes are not horns. Pipers do not blow horns. Horns are a primitive instrument made from, well, horn. Pipes are a complex instrument involving double reeds, hemp, finely turned cylindrical wood, and leather bags, that are kept in working order by spit. Horns simply make a noise. Pipes evoke the wildness of nature, deep longing and loss, the joy of dancing, and the camaraderie of arms. Equating a mere horn to the grandeur of the pipes is a fundamental error, sufficient in and of itself to cast doubt upon your entire allegorical construct. ---
**Author:** ![Already\_in\_Use](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/49 "2002-07-22T07:20:18Z")
Funny, I always thought “Stairway to Heaven” was a drug-induced attempt to write the most overplayed, overinterpreted, and overestimated song of all time. But what would I know? ---
**Author:** ![Delta-9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Delta-9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delta-9)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/50 "2002-07-22T14:41:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Already in Use \* > \*\*Funny, I always thought “Stairway to Heaven” was a drug-induced attempt to write the most overplayed, overinterpreted, and overestimated song of all time. > > But what would I know? \*\* Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner, folks! ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/51 "2002-07-22T15:55:39Z")
New User, why not try giving this song a shot? [http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/3126C2045178143B482568B1003B758C](http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/3126C2045178143B482568B1003B758C) Since I’ve never (and never will) read LOTR, I don’t know how connected it is to stories, but hey, it’s about a hobbit. And it makes no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/52 "2002-07-22T17:31:36Z")
I’m surprised that **Mephisto** didn’t mention the most important component of the writing session between Page and Plant that produced Stairway: a large quantity of unusually potent (for the time) red-haired sinsemelia. Look, man. Zeppelin was going through the same “Frodo Lives!” phase that a whole lot of other bands were going through at the time. These dudes had elves on the freaking brain, along with massive doses of psychoactive drugs. For a lot of those guys and gals, LotR probably comprised a very large proportion of their entire reading experience–at least that which made an impression on them. We should not be surprised to see Middle Earth bleeding all over the place, intentionally and _otherwise_. As another example I offer [The Necromancer](http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?sid=%EE%B9%93%AA%0E%D01%A4), by Rush. Tolkien inspired? Hell no! It’s a Tolkien rip-off, carefully altered according to some sort of “you can’t say ‘Satan ate my nob’” logic. STH doesn’t come close to this sort of direct influence. And anyway, everyone knows that STH is about [Satan, my sweet Satan](http://njministries.freeyellow.com/page32.html). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/53 "2002-07-22T19:57:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > **I’ve never actually heard Stairway to Heaven, or Led Zepplin** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nenya\_Elizabeth \* > **I have actually never heard this song** Clearly, both of you must be placed on exhibit in soundproof carnival sideshow booths for the rest of your lives as the _Last North Americans Under 55 Who Have Never Heard Stairway to Heaven_\*. \*[sub]To be adjusted upward over time, of course.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/54 "2002-07-23T06:37:46Z")
“Stairway to Heaven” is actually about Ritual Magick (of the Golden Dawn variety). There are several specific references for those in the know. The song describes certain details that would be known only to advanced Golden Dawn practitioners. There was a special 12-inch single pressing of StH; on the inner ring of vinyl within the innermost groove was inscribed Aleister Crowley’s motto. On one side: “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,” on the other side:" Love is the Law, Love under Will." Jimmy Page owned Crowley’s Boleskine House manor in Scotland and conducted Magick rituals there. If you are not aware of these facts, then you do not know the first thing about Led Zeppelin. P.S. The Lady who shines white light is the Tarot card known as the High Priestess. If you know the placement of this card on the Kabbalistic Tree of Life used in the Golden Dawn, you will understand the significance of the phrase “Stairway to Heaven” and that the lyrics are not just random blather as some suppose but a deliberate allusion to Golden Dawn symbolism. ---
**Author:** ![TelcontarStorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ab097/32.png) [@TelcontarStorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TelcontarStorm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/55 "2002-07-23T13:04:57Z")
^:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/56 "2002-07-23T14:10:56Z")
Robert Plant is on extensive record as stating that the lyrics are a stream of conciousness response to hearing the melody. In short; they’re hippy gibberish, which is the reason he gives for loathing the song now. He finds it embarrasing. I can’t provide an online cite but he said as much in this months Q magazine (UK music magazine). ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/57 "2002-07-24T12:39:50Z")
I think that “Stairway to Heaven” is a better song for _not_ being specifically about _The Lord of the Rings_, Celtic mythology, ritual magic, or even superficial women, even though all of those elements entered into Plant and Page’s writing of the song. Yeah, in some sense it’s hippie gibberish, but it’s interesting hippie gibberish. If I want to know about _The Lord of the Rings_, I’ll read the book. If I want to know about Celtic mythology or ritual magic, I’ll study those subjects. If I want to know about superficial women, I’ll date one and then get dumped by her. No, who am I kidding, what I’ll do is I’ll try to get a date with one and get completely ignored by her. But if I wanted to understand “Stairway to Heaven,” I’d have to do as much drugs as Plant and Page were at the time they were writing the song, and I don’t want to understand it that much. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/58 "2002-07-24T12:48:45Z")
Cider played a large part in it’s gestation too. Proper cider. It would make you wonder (what day it was who you were, why that big white rabbit was following you around) ---
**Author:** ![manwithaplan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@manwithaplan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manwithaplan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/59 "2002-07-24T14:06:49Z")
Can I just ask whether it’s still OK to finish the slow set at the school disco by pushing away your partner and headbanging to the fast bit at the end. I’m afraid that Galadriel or the Virgin Mary or some bimbo might disapprove. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/60 "2002-07-24T18:53:06Z")
Oh, and **elfkin**? The word “hobbit” is the only thing in the song you linked which I can remotely vaguely connect to any of Tolkien’s work. I think that was a deliberate attempt to try to confuse folks looking for meaning in it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927.md?page=4)