# Stairway to Heaven IS Tolkien related!! (LONG) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 20, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927 "2002-07-20T03:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/61 "2002-07-25T01:00:13Z")
In this connection it makes sense to mention a weird novel by George R. R. Martin, _The Armageddon Rag_. It’s an occult rock-‘n’-roll apocalyptic countercultural murder mystery. It’s about a legendary 60s band called **the Nazgûl** , and their lead singer is nicknamed “Hobbit” 'cause he’s a short little guy and the band’s name has a Tolkien theme. The plot revolves around their revival in the 1980s and some very suspicious skullduggery going on underneath it. The story has black magic, the protest movement, satire, sex, and lots and lots of rock-‘n’-roll. This book _rocks_. Get it. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/62 "2002-08-01T17:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*Oh, and **elfkin**? The word “hobbit” is the only thing in the song you linked which I can remotely vaguely connect to any of Tolkien’s work. I think that was a deliberate attempt to try to confuse folks looking for meaning in it. \*\* What about the dwarf? ---
**Author:** ![substatique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@substatique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/substatique)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/63 "2003-04-25T10:58:30Z")
Just to throw another remarkably brilliant opinion into the cauldron, I think only the following lines of the song are a convincing reference to Tolkein: _“There’s a feeling I get when I look to the west, And my spirit is crying for leaving.”_ This seems quite clearly to be about the elves, perhaps a particular elf, feeling the pull of Valinor in the west. However, the idea of a faerie isle in the west was taken from Celtic mythology (I assume, I think safely). The home of the Tuatha Dannan (gods) is the isle of Tyr Na Og, IIRC. With the knowledge that westerly migration is an archetypical image, it is quite possible to hear the song as a story in any number of fantastical or realistic settings. The Tolkein references are just that: they use Tolkein’s imagery to make a point beyond Tolkein’s own work. If I may quote again from the song: _“sometimes words have two meanings.”_ ---
**Author:** ![substatique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@substatique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/substatique)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/64 "2003-04-25T11:01:05Z")
Oops. Sorry for dredging up a dead thread. Somebody linked to it. On the other hand, this thread could now be moved to “Comments on Cecil’s Columns”! ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/65 "2003-04-25T11:09:05Z")
Since this has been resurrected, I’ll repeat what I said in CCC. The whole thing makes more sense if it’s interpreted in terms of Arwen rather that Galadriel. She’s “buying the stairway to heaven” because her involvement with Aragorn is eventually going to run her into the choice of the children of Elrond. She’ll be forced to choose mortality, rather than passing into the west. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/66 "2003-04-25T19:55:10Z")
But at least now we know what the line “If the stores are all closed” referrs to. It’s obviously a reference to the [Gap of Rohan](http://home.nyu.edu/~amw243/diaries/arwen.html)! ---
**Author:** ![Fingolfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eada6e/32.png) [@Fingolfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fingolfin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/67 "2003-04-25T21:08:44Z")
You guys are thinking too much. 😉 From the Zep FAQ: > [@](#): > > Q: Are there a lot of references to J.R.R. Tolkien’s works in Led Zeppelin songs? > > A: Not really. “Ramble On” and “The Battle Of Evermore” feature direct references, as does the title “Misty Mountain Hop,” but that’s it. There is no apparent link between Tolkien’s work and “Stairway To Heaven.” > [@](#): > > “Well, we were all high on the Moroccan dope at the time, so who knows?” - Robert Plant, on the meaning of “Stairway To Heaven”. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/68 "2003-04-27T07:23:56Z")
Regarding rolling stones, there is an old saying, “A rolling stone gathers no moss.” Both Tolkien’s and Dylan’s remarks are from it. **Desmostylus** , no it doesn’t make any more sense. What stores all closed that Arwen would want to get what she came for from? What signs are on the wall with words that have two meanings? What piper is there calling Arwen to reason? “All that glitters is gold” is definitely a different sentiment than “All that is gold does not glitter”. The poem in Tolkien with that line is about Aragorn, written and recited by Bilbo, and used by Gandalf to alert Frodo of Strider. It is not used by Arwen. As far as the lady of light, Wouldn’t that be Glenda the Good Witch of the North? Or how about the unnamed Fairy Godmother of Cinderella? No no no, it’s Princess Leia - who wears white and is the leader of the good guys, and the light side of the force. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/69 "2003-04-27T08:06:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > **Desmostylus** , no it doesn’t make any more sense. Maybe not to you. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > What stores all closed that Arwen would want to get what she came for from? If I ever get the opportunity to participate in a “Being Robert Plant” experience a la “Being John Malkovitch”, I’ll let you know. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > What piper is there calling Arwen to reason? If the song is about Arwen, then the piper has to be Aragorn. Aragorn is the spearhead of the new age, in which man ascends and the elves diminish. She’s drawn to Aragorn, but the piper’s price has to be paid, i.e., she has to die. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > “All that glitters is gold” is definitely a different sentiment than “All that is gold does not glitter”. The poem in Tolkien with that line is about Aragorn, written and recited by Bilbo, and used by Gandalf to alert Frodo of Strider. It is not used by Arwen. Regardless of who wrote it, it’s about Aragorn. Arwen is the one that fell in love with and married Aragorn. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/70 "2003-04-27T09:29:47Z")
What you’re doing, Desmostylus, is picking one line in the song that happens to fit Arwen better than any other character in _The Lord of the Rings_. From this you conclude that the song must therefore be about Arwen, so you arbitrarily force the rest of the song to fit into your interpretation. The problem is that the song as a whole doesn’t seem to have any single consistent interpretation. Sure, pieces of it seem to be about Arwen or Galadriel or Celtic mythology or the Virgin Mary or ritual magic or some superficial woman that Robert Plant once dated or Glenda the Good Witch or whatever. That’s not the real issue. The question we have is whether you can find a consistent interpretation of the whole song. Go back to my post that’s a little more than halfway through the first page of this thread and tell me how your interpretation of the song as being about Arwen can be made to consistently and plausibly be made to answer the questions I have there about the interpretation of the song. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/71 "2003-04-27T10:19:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wendell Wagner \* > **What you’re doing, Desmostylus, is picking one line in the song that happens to fit Arwen better than any other character in _The Lord of the Rings_. From this you conclude that the song must therefore be about Arwen, so you arbitrarily force the rest of the song to fit into your interpretation.** I’ll repeat my first post in this thread: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Desmostylus_ > **The whole thing makes more sense if it’s interpreted in terms of Arwen rather that Galadriel.** Not the comparative word _more_. And it’s not just one arbitrary line that I picked, _it’s also the title of the freakin’ song_. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/72 "2003-04-27T10:27:46Z")
Let’s create a measure of sense. An explanation of “Stairway to Heaven” that is completely consistent and explains the entire song is one Cecil. NewUser1’s explanation of the song as referring to Galadriel was worth 1 micro-Cecil. Your explanation of it as referring to Arwen was worth 2 micro-Cecils. Are we supposed to be impressed because your explanation wasn’t quite as incoherent as NewUser1’s was? ---
**Author:** ![Joao-B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Joao-B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joao-B)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/73 "2003-04-27T10:46:16Z")
I allways thought the song was about some of Page or Plant’s lady friend… (and i still like to think of it that way) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/74 "2003-04-27T12:40:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wendell Wagner \* > \*\*Let’s create a measure of sense. An explanation of “Stairway to Heaven” that is completely consistent and explains the entire song is one Cecil. NewUser1’s explanation of the song as referring to Galadriel was worth 1 micro-Cecil. Your explanation of it as referring to Arwen was worth 2 micro-Cecils. Are we supposed to be impressed because your explanation wasn’t quite as incoherent as NewUser1’s was? \*\* Let’s create an arbitrary and nonsensical measure of interpretive ability. On a scale from [Time Cube guy](http://www.timecube.com) to [Lunar Landing Conspiracy](http://www.theparafiles.com/articles/fmlc.html), I’d rate you at [Grassy Knoll](http://www.grassyknoll.homestead.com). If you’re looking for complete consistency, it isn’t there. But that in itself doesn’t form a comprehensive rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/75 "2003-04-27T16:23:01Z")
Complete consistency (or at least halfway consistency) is the entire point. NewUser1’s claim in starting this thread was that he had produced a comprehensive explanation of the song. He didn’t, and in fact he had only explained a tiny part of the song. You have only explained a slightly larger part of the song. I consider the best explanation so far to be the one given by Johnny L. A., where he explains it as being about a shallow woman. It still is only about 20 micro-Cecils, but it’s the best one so far. Until such point as someone gives an explanation of the song that covers most of the lines of the song and does so consistently, I’m going to assume that this song is indeed hippie gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![tommycash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@tommycash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tommycash)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/76 "2013-06-10T00:02:13Z")
Not to mention the fact that these lines: And if you listen very hard The tune will come to you at last. When all are one and one is all To be a rock and not to roll. It’s very reminiscent of the The Ainulindalë. The tune that binds all the universe together etc. etc. I think it’s inspired sure, but not entirely all related. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/77 "2013-06-10T01:33:00Z")
Given that “Stairway to Heaven” was released in 1971 and the Ainulindalë (and the rest of _The Silmarillion_) was published in 1977, it’s hard to see how the song could have been influenced by the book: > **[Stairway to Heaven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stairway_to_Heaven)** > > "Stairway to Heaven" is a song by English rock band Led Zeppelin, released in late 1971. It was composed by the band's guitarist Jimmy Page and lead singer Robert Plant for their untitled fourth studio album (often titled Led Zeppelin IV). The song is widely regarded as one of the greatest rock songs of all time. > The song has three sections, each one progressively increasing in tempo and volume. The song begins in a slow tempo with acoustic instruments (guitar and recorders) before introducin... > **[Ainulindalë](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainulindal%C3%AB)** > > The Ainulindalë (Quenya: \[ˌai̯nuˈlindalɛ \]; "Music of the Ainur") is the creation account in J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium, published posthumously as the first part of The Silmarillion in 1977. The "Ainulindalë" sets out a central part of the cosmology of Tolkien's legendarium, telling how the Ainur, a class of angelic beings, perform a great music prefiguring the creation of the material universe, Eä, including Middle-Earth. > The creator Eru Ilúvatar introduces the theme of the sentient race... ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/78 "2013-06-10T03:40:43Z")
Zombie thread alert. An entertaining zombie thread I hadn’t seen before, but still, a zombie. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/79 "2013-06-10T12:44:10Z")
And it make me wonder … ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927/80 "2013-06-10T13:17:24Z")
There’s a zombie rustling in my hedgerow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stairway-to-heaven-is-tolkien-related-long/119927.md?page=5)