# Stan Shmenge, please don't do this to your fellow conservatives. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098 "2009-01-06T16:32:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/41 "2009-01-06T22:35:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > His comments were especially ironic considering that the underlying tenet of liberal philosophy is that all rights accrue from property ownership. > > ETA: > > Conservative philosophy holds that rights accrue from magisterial fiat. 😕 I’d like some cites for both of those propositions – N.B.: To avoid confusion, make sure they are cites using the **contemporary American** senses of the words “liberal” (!= “libertarian”) and “conservative”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/42 "2009-01-06T22:37:54Z")
Cripes, you two - get a room! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/43 "2009-01-06T22:42:00Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well that’s a relief! 🙂 _You’re_ a _conservative?_ What the fuck is this world coming to? And where the fuck have _I_ been? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/44 "2009-01-06T22:43:27Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Oh please, let’s don’t. The uptight prudes on this board could never handle it. > > The rest of this cracks me up. “Crack up”? Obviously a marxist. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/45 "2009-01-06T22:57:16Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > “Crack up”? Obviously a marxist. I think Marxist sex is what you do if you have lost your chains. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/46 "2009-01-06T23:06:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 I’d like some cites for both of those propositions – N.B.: To avoid confusion, make sure they are cites using the **contemporary American** senses of the words “liberal” (!= “libertarian”) and “conservative”. To beat this dead horse even further, I can’t see any reason why **Liberal** ’s cites must refer to American usage. He’s American, you’re American, a lot of the board is American. But most of the World is not American. And this is a message board on the World Wide Web. Please don’t get all Exceptional on us. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/47 "2009-01-06T23:14:37Z")
Thanks, Nancarrow. You saved me some typing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/48 "2009-01-06T23:34:28Z")
I still don’t see anything in classical liberalism that says all rights accrue from property ownership. Even the libertarians aren’t that onerous. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/49 "2009-01-06T23:35:14Z")
I would also add that the terms have flipped twice in American history, once in the Wilson era and again in the Johnson era. Lyndon Johnson was a conservative in the classical sense, and Goldwater was a liberal. Likewise, Wilson was a liberal but would now be viewed as conservative. It has gotten to the point where it’s hard to pin down who is what, frankly, especially on the conservative side. There are social conservatives (which is what Wilson would be called today) and there are fiscal conservatives (like Giuliani and Rockefeller). Even weirder is the modern view of early Americans, like Jefferson and Burr. The old terms are still used, even thought they’re “wrong” today! Jefferson is called a liberal despite that he championed individualism, reason, and liberty. And Aaron Burr is called a conservative despite that he considered George Washington to be “a man of no talents and one who could not spell a sentence of common English”. If Jefferson were alive today, outside his historic context, he would be called a libertarian. And Burr would be called an effete liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/50 "2009-01-06T23:37:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I still don’t see anything in classical liberalism that says all rights accrue from property ownership. Even the libertarians aren’t that onerous. “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” [Liberalism in the Classical Tradition](http://mises.org/liberal.asp), Ludwig von Mises ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/51 "2009-01-07T00:29:56Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Lyndon Johnson was a conservative in the classical sense. . . No he wasn’t. Conservatives in the classical sense have always been rare in the US, and by the 1960s, they were pretty much non-existant. A classical conservative wouldn’t use language like: > [@](#): > > Those words are promised to every citizen that he shall share in the dignity of man. This dignity cannot be found in a man’s possessions. It cannot be found in his power or in his position. It really rests on his right to be treated as a man equal in opportunity to all others. It says that he shall share in freedom. He shall choose his leaders, educate his children, provide for his family according to his ability and his merits as a human being. > > To apply any other test, to deny a man his hopes because of his color or race or his religion or the place of his birth is not only to do injustice, it is to deny Americans and to dishonor the dead who gave their lives for American freedom. . . . Or: > [@](#): > > We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory, but equality as a fact and equality as a result If he’s talking about equality, if he’s talking about an inherent dignity of man, he’s not a classic conservative. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/52 "2009-01-07T00:39:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” > > [Liberalism in the Classical Tradition](http://mises.org/liberal.asp), Ludwig von Mises That has nothing whatsoever to do with **rights** as such. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/53 "2009-01-07T00:41:37Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” > > [Liberalism in the Classical Tradition](http://mises.org/liberal.asp), Ludwig von Mises And how do you construe from that quote your proposition that all rights must therefore acrue from property? You seem to have extended Von Mises to mean that those without property have no rights. That is surely false. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/54 "2009-01-07T00:44:30Z")
Please forgive me, but I looked at the post in IMHO that started this all and this is the original title, minus one letter: _ebay buyer wants to combine shipping, but i dk_. This has been cracking me up since I read it. Okay, back to your mature conversation. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/55 "2009-01-07T00:53:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think Marxist sex is what you do if you have lost your chains. > > Regards, > Shodan Marxist sex is impossible, because nobody can be on top. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/56 "2009-01-07T01:08:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Even weirder is the modern view of early Americans, like Jefferson and Burr. The old terms are still used, even thought they’re “wrong” today! Jefferson is called a liberal despite that he championed individualism, reason, and liberty. And Aaron Burr is called a conservative despite that he considered George Washington to be “a man of no talents and one who could not spell a sentence of common English”. If Jefferson were alive today, outside his historic context, he would be called a libertarian. And Burr would be called an effete liberal. Wait-are you sure you mean Burr, and not Alexander Hamilton? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/57 "2009-01-07T01:20:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Never mind any of this - let’s hear more about **Sarahfeena** ’s sex life. > > Let’s see - if missionary makes Republicans… > > Woman on top - feminist, obviously. > > Reverse cowgirl - lesbian, of course. > > Side by side - centrist Democrat. (Centrist Republican if the male is impotent). > > Doggy style - socialist. They go at everything back-assward, and if they hit the right spot it is only by accident. > > Conceive a child with a virgin, and you get Obama. (He doesn’t have any experience, either). > > Regards, > Shodan > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Marxist sex is impossible, because nobody can be on top. 😃😃 You two need to team up more often. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/58 "2009-01-07T01:21:52Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’m sorry I spelled your user name wrong in my header. If a mod could fix it, that would be great. Damn. It looks like the mods fixed it before I arrived on the scene…and now the curiousity is killing me. I can’t help but think you subconsciously misspelled it as Stan [Schmegma](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schmegma). ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/59 "2009-01-07T01:29:05Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > 😃😃 You two need to team up more often. Ha! You know what’s funny (or pathetic, maybe)? I didn’t even see his earlier post that you quoted. I guess liberals and conservatives are all of the same mind when it comes to making sex jokes (i.e., never pass up the opportunity). ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/60 "2009-01-07T01:41:53Z")
Marxist sex is the 69. It sounds all exciting and you get all heated up to try it, and then you try it, and everything’s all out of place, and you realize that you’re looking at parts of people you don’t want to look at, and nobody’s ever going to successfully get a-head this way. And something smells funny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098.md?page=4)