# Stan Shmenge, please don't do this to your fellow conservatives. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098 "2009-01-06T16:32:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/101 "2009-01-08T16:15:05Z")
Somehow, I don’t think that “Harder! Faster! More!” fits “the dictatorship of the proletariat”, even as they most assuredly control the “means of production”. However, we certainly have the key to reversing **SA** ’s political polarity, if we can find a volunteer… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/102 "2009-01-08T16:21:51Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Liberal** , did you say Goldwater was a Liberal? Then why did he write \*\*Conscience of a Conservative? _Pleasepleaseplease_ don’t get him started again. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/103 "2009-01-08T16:23:35Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > I wondered exactly the same thing. A search reveals he used to be [Happy Wanderer](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10483612). Thanks. I vaguely remember **HW** , but don’t have any recall of what his posting style/content was. The new and unimproved version seems like someone I’ll be not paying much attention to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/104 "2009-01-08T16:24:39Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I liked the name **Happy Wanderer**. It made me feel drunk and think of the Expos. > > **Liberal** , did you say Goldwater was a Liberal? Then why did he write \*\*Conscience of a Conservative? Just trying to fool all of us in 1964? Or was he writing about LBJ? Goldwater was a Liberal in the sense that \*\*Liberal \*\*is a Liberal. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/105 "2009-01-08T17:31:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Goldwater was a Liberal in the sense that \*\*Liberal \*\*is a Liberal. 'Course, he woulda smacked you if you called him that. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/106 "2009-01-09T09:01:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > “The program of liberalism, therefore, if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property, that is, private ownership of the means of production… All the other demands of liberalism result from his fundamental demand.” > > [Liberalism in the Classical Tradition](http://mises.org/liberal.asp), Ludwig von Mises [Let’s face it - this is a hijack, but…] I’m not trying to be difficult Lib, but I’m a little uncomfortable making von Mises the final authority here. Do you know what [Locke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke)’s position on this might be? I’m guessing that he would say that property rights were but one of a few, and that they are not the sole source of the remainder. But I admit that I probably have not read any of his original work. Hm. It seems from wikipedia that Locke derives property rights from labor. Then again, his successors tend to emphasize the social contracting as the source of rights. [/Let’s face it - this is a hijack, but…] ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/107 "2009-01-09T09:29:18Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Liberal** , did you say Goldwater was a Liberal? Then why did he write \*\*Conscience of a Conservative? Just trying to fool all of us in 1964? Or was he writing about LBJ? I believe I explained that in quite some detail. See my post about the terms morphing and switching multiple times in American usage. “Classical liberal” and “classical conservative” give us terms that mimick the more steady usage of the terms worldwide. Goldwater was a classical liberal. And incidentally, with Obama the terms in America may well flip again. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/108 "2009-01-09T09:32:00Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It seems from wikipedia that Locke derives property rights from labor. Right. And by extension from ownership of one’s body and/or mind (whichever do/does the labor). > [@](#): > > Then again, his successors tend to emphasize the social contracting as the source of rights. And they would be classical conservatives. In America, as of this writing, they would be liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/109 "2009-01-09T13:45:09Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The least you can do is acknowledge it, and stop acting like a spoiled child who hasn’t been given what he’s screaming for. And you should stop acting like the pompous, long winded professor who fulminates when a student points out his fly is down. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/110 "2009-01-09T13:58:50Z")
**Liberal** , it may be a bit of a hijack, but I for one have learned a lot from what you posted here, and I think it’s an interesting subject, and one you are well informed on. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/111 "2009-01-10T21:24:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And you should stop acting like the pompous, long winded professor who fulminates when a student points out his fly is down. This is bogus. This thing about the varying definitions of the world liberal is an old chestnut for Lib. He’s fully aware of the European and American definitions of the word liberal and most intelligent readers should be able to work this one out. Continuing the hijack, as a leftie I’m not sure why Lib wants to take ownership of this damaged brand. William Safire (Safire’s Political Dictionary, 1978) agrees with Lib: > [@William Safire](#): > > ``` > In the original sense the word described those of the emerging middle classes in France and Great Britain who wanted to throw off the rules the dominant aristocracy had made to cement its own control. > > During the 1920s the meaning of the word changed to describe those who believed a certain amount of governmental action was necessary to protect the people's "real" freedoms as opposed to their purely legal - and not necessarily existent - freedoms. > > This philosophical about-face led former New York governor Thomas Dewey to say, after using the original definition, "Two hundred years later, the transmutation of the word, as the alchemist would say, has become one of the wonders of our time." > > ``` > > In US politics the word was used by George Washington to indicate a person of generousity or broad-mindedness, as he expressed distaste for those who would deprive Catholics and Jews of their rights. The modern American meaning of the word liberal was cemented during the New Deal. But until the 1960s or 1970s, liberals were understood to be opposed from both the far left and the far right. Safire also noted: "The word has fallen on hard times. In the 1976 presidential primaries, Rep. Morris Udall told columnist David Broder: `When a word takes on connotations you don’t like, it’s time to change the label.’ Henceforth, Udall said --though he would think of himself as a liberal- he would use the word “progressive” instead because the word “liberal” was “associated with abortion, drugs, busing and big-spending wasteful government.” " Safire’s entry is worth reading in full. Lib may even want to bookmark it (p388-89): > **[Safire's Political Dictionary](https://books.google.com/books?id=jK-0NPoMiYoC&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389&dq=safire+liberal+hard+times+morris+udall&source=web&ots=AVf0gJpwUF&sig=wN-s5KoJHtFpC5T1ApurVd3cRPo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result)** > > When it comes to the vagaries of language in American politics, its uses and abuses, its absurdities and ever-shifting nuances, its power to confound, obscure, and occasionally to inspire, William Safire is the language maven we most readily turn to... * * * ETA and PS: The modern liberal philosopher John Rawls uses a social contract approach to justify a framework that is extremely egalitarian by contemporary standards. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/112 "2009-01-10T21:45:58Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Continuing the hijack, as a leftie I’m not sure why Lib wants to take ownership of this damaged brand. You missed when I explained that way back when. There are certain words that have been mutilated almost beyond recognition, and I wanted there to be (1) a renewal of the classic usage and (2) some reasonable discussion about the issue and recognition of its history. One need only check the etymology of the word to figure out what “liberal” is intended to mean. It comes from the Latin _liber_, meaning “freedom”. Same as the word “liberty”. Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful comments and the interesting link. > [@miss elizabeth](#): > > **Liberal** , it may be a bit of a hijack, but I for one have learned a lot from what you posted here, and I think it’s an interesting subject, and one you are well informed on. You are very kind. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/113 "2009-01-10T22:37:17Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You missed when I explained that way back when. There are certain words that have been mutilated almost beyond recognition, and I wanted there to be (1) a renewal of the classic usage and (2) some reasonable discussion about the issue and recognition of its history. The second is a legitimate goal. The first is not – especially not when you already have a perfectly serviceable and unambiguous label in “libertarian.” In [this article](http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2008/it_ok_be_liberal_again_instead_progressive_8448) (discussed in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=496350) GD thread) Michael Lind defines “liberal” as follows: “Liberalism is a theory of a social order based on individual civil liberties, private property, popular sovereignty and democratic republican government.” That is **not** what you mean by the word – it’s close, but libertarianism does not admit the legitimacy of popular sovereignty as such. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/114 "2009-01-10T23:48:53Z")
It appears that you know even less about libertarianism than you do about liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/115 "2009-01-10T23:59:35Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It appears that you know even less about libertarianism than you do about liberalism. I went through a libertarian phase when I was young(er) and (more) foolish, and I have known several libertarians intimately; I’m sure I’m not misrepresenting their views. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/116 "2009-01-11T00:08:10Z")
Bet you’ve known some Injuns, too. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/117 "2009-01-11T00:19:12Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It appears that you [Brainglutton] know even less about libertarianism than you do about liberalism. Not fair, methinks. Libertarians don’t like regulation of big business, which American liberals believe to be an aspect of popular sovereignty. More generally, there’s a tradition of concern for the downtrodden and respect for empirical inquiry that runs through Adam Smith, Ricardo, John Stuart Mill and Keynes. Today’s libertarians miss the first aspect of liberalism almost entirely and have supplanted observation with ideology over the past couple of decades. Old school libertarians such as Milton Friedman were highly empirical, however, as are members of today’s Chicago school. That said, I don’t agree with Michael Lind. The word “Liberal” rolls off the lips in an awkward manner and is a damaged brand. And in Europe there are meaningful distinctions between those called liberals and socialists. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/118 "2009-01-11T03:02:04Z")
Me, I just wanna be a Libertine. Pass me that hip flask. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/119 "2009-01-11T03:09:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The second is a legitimate goal. The first is not – especially not when you already have a perfectly serviceable and unambiguous label in “libertarian.” “Libertarian” has morphed into something pretty unrecognisable, too, though. I believe the current definition is “overwrought former or fringe Republican who likes guns more than he dislikes gays and/or drugs.” See Bob Barr, Ron Paul, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098/120 "2009-01-11T06:13:05Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Not fair, methinks. Libertarians don’t like regulation of big business, which American liberals believe to be an aspect of popular sovereignty. A popular misconception. Libertarians advocate strict regulation against initial force and deception, which the philosophy calls “coercion”, in all business dealings. A similar misunderstanding involves the size of government, often voiced as “Libertarians like small government”. Libertarian philosophy is not concerned with the size of government, but rather with its scope; i.e., what it involves itself in. As far as size goes, it should be however large it needs to be to suppress coercion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-please-dont-do-this-to-your-fellow-conservatives/480098.md?page=7)