# Stan Shmenge, stop saying this sort of crap about black people **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635 "2010-03-07T17:02:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/1 "2010-03-07T17:02:25Z")
I have never Pitted anyone before, but this is so outrageous that I now see the need. So **drastic\_quench** makes a thread [asking about neighborhoods to look at for housing in Chicago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=554695), and **Markxxx** shows up with this crap: > [@Good neighborhoods to Move To In Chicago?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-neighborhoods-to-move-to-in-chicago/531379/16): > > If you’d like a “house and small yard” you’re going to be pretty much on the NW side or the south side, which is mostly African America, but it does have nice areas too. Completely ridiculous, but this pitting is not about **Markxxx**. This pitting is about **Stan Shmenge**. **Stan** came into the thread to defend **Mark** against accusations of racism. Apparently, **Mark** ’s comment was perfectly acceptable because, well… > [@Good neighborhoods to Move To In Chicago?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-neighborhoods-to-move-to-in-chicago/531379/24): > > In the past, Hyde Park was always a safe place to be at any hour of the day. No more. Besides, poverty doesn’t excuse crime. Of course now we have an urban popular culture that glamorizes violence and mistreatment of women, so all the gangstas feel like they can do as they please with impunity, and sadly they are right. The animals that attempted to murder my friend were never arrested. That’s right. Black people, clearly, are _animals_, and violence is part of black culture. > [@Good neighborhoods to Move To In Chicago?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-neighborhoods-to-move-to-in-chicago/531379/21): > > The U of C has a real problem. They have sought to improve safety by creating buffer zones, purchasing property south of the Midway for example, but it has come to naught. I think the slide began when they built the McDonald’s on 53rd street. This brought in the blacks, and they have pretty much taken over 53rd street, as far as I could tell the last time I was there, making for a very frightening scene, especially at night. Oh my god, The Blacks! :eek: They’re taking over! **Stan** , until you start acknowledging that a) yes, poverty DOES make people more likely to commit crime, it’s not because black people, oh sorry, I mean “the blacks”, are violent “animals” that need to be controlled from infesting the poor innocent south side, which actually had MORE crime before white flight b) your comments are showing some really disgusting racial bias, I am going to look at you with even more disdain than you have for your fellow humans. Welcome to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/2 "2010-03-07T17:25:47Z")
> [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > That’s right. Black people, clearly, are _animals_, and violence is part of black culture. Nowhere in that entire quote did he say that black people are animals, nor did he say that violence is part of black culture. You struck out swinging on this. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/3 "2010-03-07T17:30:59Z")
I took his comment of, “of course now we have an urban popular culture that glamorizes violence and mistreatment of women,” to mean the collective “we” and not Chicago specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/4 "2010-03-07T17:39:26Z")
He’s right. Poverty does not excuse crime. Crime in black culture is socio-economic, not racial, and excusing it or turning a blind eye to it in a misguided attempt to avoid racism only makes the problem worse. The more people are allowed by a society to misbehave, the more they will. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/5 "2010-03-07T18:07:47Z")
I was ready to excuse the first comment about “urban culture,” because thugs are not bound by any race, but the comment about the McDonalds “bringing in the blacks,” and said blacks, “taking over 53rd street…making for a very frightening scene, especially at night.” is race specific, and offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/6 "2010-03-07T18:09:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > He’s right. Poverty does not excuse crime. Crime in black culture is socio-economic, not racial, and excusing it or turning a blind eye to it in a misguided attempt to avoid racism only makes the problem worse. The more people are allowed by a society to misbehave, the more they will. So it’s ok to saying that being black makes people “frightening,” but not ok to acknowledge the undeniable fact that poverty correlates with street crime? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/7 "2010-03-07T18:19:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So it’s ok to saying that being black makes people “frightening”… I don’t believe I said a word about black people being frightening. Still, since you brought it up, it’s only logical that people be at least somewhat frightened by people from a culture that contains a disproportionate amount of criminal activity. It’s a double-edged sword for most black people: they get victimized by black on black crime, and then get fear from whites because they might be criminals themselves. It’s a bad deal and it’s not going to get better until people stop excusing and glamorizing ghetto crime culture and letting black criminals off the hook because punishing them would be racist. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > …but not ok to acknowledge the undeniable fact that poverty correlates with street crime? I specifically said that crime in black culture is socio-economic, not racial. How did you miss it, it wasn’t that large of a post? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/8 "2010-03-07T18:21:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t believe I said a word about black people being frightening. No, but you chose to ignore the fact that Schmenge did. > [@](#): > > Still, since you brought it up, it’s only logical that people be at least somewhat frightened by people from a culture that contains a disproportionate amount of criminal activity. This is a ridiculous and racist statement, but if you really believe it, you need to avoid white people. They commit the most crime. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/9 "2010-03-07T18:22:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, but you chos to ignore the fact that Schmenge did. > > You need to be afraid of white people then. They commit the most crime. Not proportionate to their numbers. And you know it. (Why else point to the fact that the black crime rate is due to poverty, not race, hmm? Frankly, to a degree it’s people with attitudes like yours that have enabled ghetto culture and its subsequent criminal activity to flourish. Unthinking support isn’t support at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/10 "2010-03-07T18:24:05Z")
Sure it’s proportionate. They just don’t get arrested as much. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/11 "2010-03-07T18:38:27Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t believe I said a word about black people being frightening. > [@](#): > > This brought in the blacks, and they have pretty much taken over 53rd street, as far as I could tell the last time I was there, making for a very frightening scene, especially at night. Really? Anyway, is it just me, or is “Ghetto/thug culture” just a way for people to complain about blacks and then backtrack and say that they don’t mean ALL blacks, just the ones making a bad name for the rest of them? It’s getting so old. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/12 "2010-03-07T18:49:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t believe I said a word about black people being frightening. Still, since you brought it up, it’s only logical that people be at least somewhat frightened by people from a culture that contains a disproportionate amount of criminal activity. Which, of course, is why I fear Republicans, given the large numbers of them that are in banking and related industries that harbor so many criminals. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/13 "2010-03-07T18:54:51Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Really? > > Anyway, is it just me, or is “Ghetto/thug culture” just a way for people to complain about blacks and then backtrack and say that they don’t mean ALL blacks, just the ones making a bad name for the rest of them? It’s getting so old. You’re quoting the wrong person, **Stan Shmenge** said the bit about blacks taking over 53rd st, not **Starving Artist**. I don’t like **SA** or really anything he says, but if you misquote him it gives him more fodder for his persecution complex. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/14 "2010-03-07T19:02:42Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Nowhere in that entire quote did he say that black people are animals, nor did he say that violence is part of black culture. > > You struck out swinging on this. The OP has a quote that firmly innuendos black people as animals. You want to be obtuse, that’s your right. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/15 "2010-03-07T19:03:50Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > You’re quoting the wrong person, **Stan Shmenge** said the bit about blacks taking over 53rd st, not **Starving Artist**. I don’t like **SA** or really anything he says, but if you misquote him it gives him more fodder for his persecution complex. Crap, the s names. Sorry, I retract my statement. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/16 "2010-03-07T19:06:43Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Really? > > Anyway, is it just me, or is “Ghetto/thug culture” just a way for people to complain about blacks and then backtrack and say that they don’t mean ALL blacks, just the ones making a bad name for the rest of them? It’s getting so old. Thank you for providing a textbook example of typical American liberal thinking which equates criticism of any black as an indictment of all blacks. It’s “ghetto/thug” culture is a perfectly obvious element of black culture that is creating great difficulty in the struggle to create a color-blind society. What is it with liberals? Even when you’re on the right side of an issue you go about it in the wrong way. Anyone with half a brain should know that excusing misogyny and criminality is a harmful thing to do, but you’re so eager to avoid the “racist” tag and/or to pin it on someone else that you totally abandon discrernment and critical thinking and adopt the position that you have to support anything and everything that comes out of the black community, good or bad. This attitude is self-defeating in terms of creating an unbaised society and it only make things harder for those who you oddly accuse me of calling the “good” blacks, as though living a crime-free existence is somehow insulting. Liberals! Ya gotta love 'em! ETA: I thought **FS** was speaking to **SS** and me. I’m going to leave my post up though because it says things that I believe need to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/17 "2010-03-07T19:16:44Z")
“Thug culture” is not an “element of back culture,” it’s a result of poverty, and it includes all races. I can go to North Minny and see White thugs, Asian thugs, black thugs, Hispanic thugs and mixed race thugs. It doesn’t “come out of the black community.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/18 "2010-03-07T19:33:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “Thug culture” is not an “element of back culture”… In this context it is. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > …it’s a result of poverty… And I said as much. This makes twice that you seem to have missed it. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > …and it includes all races Of course it does. But it’s the thug culture in the black community that is causing problems for the black community. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I can go to North Minny and see White thugs, Asian thugs, black thugs, Hispanic thugs and mixed race thugs. So what? They aren’t who we’re talking about and they aren’t the ones causing overarching difficulties in the struggle of blacks to live in a color-blind society. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/19 "2010-03-07T19:42:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In this context it is. What context is that? Thugs are thugs. Race has nothing to do with it. > [@](#): > > But it’s the thug culture in the black community that is causing problems for the black community. I don’t know what this is suppsed to mean. Thug culture causes problems for all communities. > [@](#): > > So what? They aren’t who we’re talking about Who do you think we’re talking about? You’re not making any sense. > [@](#): > > and they aren’t the ones causing overarching difficulties in the struggle of blacks to live in a color-blind society. No, that’s rich white people. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635/20 "2010-03-07T19:42:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > He’s right. Poverty does not excuse crime. **Crime in black culture is socio-economic, not racial** , and excusing it or turning a blind eye to it in a misguided attempt to avoid racism only makes the problem worse. The more people are allowed by a society to misbehave, the more they will. Bolding mine. This is exactly the point I’m trying to make with this pitting. I am not trying to excuse crime. I am saying that the problem of crime is made worse by people assuming that it stems from black culture, not poverty. The real problem with the south side is that gentrification has created ghettos. Violent crime in ghettos is a problem that extends far beyond the south side and far beyond white/black divisions, and there is no solution so far that we know of. If I were to say that it was _acceptable_ for black people in poor neighborhoods to commit crime, because that’s just what they do, yeah, that would be racist. What I’m saying is that **Stan** seems to think crime comes from black “gangsta” culture (a position that seems to confuse effect with cause), and that bad areas are black areas, and that doesn’t solve the problem either. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stan-shmenge-stop-saying-this-sort-of-crap-about-black-people/531635.md?page=2)