# Stand Even More Ground **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 7, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844 "2015-10-07T18:09:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/21 "2015-10-07T20:06:11Z")
If I were a defense attorney, this law would delight me! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/22 "2015-10-07T20:08:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, **ElvisL1ves** is now “nobody”? And, given your posting history, if you say you weren’t considering him- well then, somewhere a pair of pants will spontaneously burst into flames. Since he wasn’t quoted in the two articles I linked, nor in my OP, and you didn’t quote his post either, no, I wasn’t considering him. > [@](#): > > Yes, I do know. But you didn’t know Zimmerman wasn’t a SYG case. What the fuck are you talking about? I didn’t bring up Zimmerman, and you clearly didn’t read the post you’re quoting. > [@](#): > > Again- _Please explain the benefit of sending a otherwise law-abiding home-owner to (our overcrowded) prison for life due to what we consider a mistake in judgement?_ _Read the post you’re quoting._ Once you figure out what you’re talking about, we can have a debate about the SYG defense if you like. This thread is about SYG immunity. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Or perhaps having the State _not bring spurious charges against innocent citizens_. And cite it would “bankrupt the state”? > [@billfish678](#): > > Why would it bankrupt the state? > > \ > > But the idea that if you are innocent it don’t cost you nuttin is a some end of the world thing is just gawd fucking stupid IMO. Why would paying the attorney’s fees of _every single person accused of a crime and exonerated_ bankrupt the state? Really? Anyway, it’s not “if you’re innocent.” It’s if you’re not proven guilty. Those are two totally different things. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/23 "2015-10-07T20:08:44Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > This new thing where it MAY be you get two trials MAY be a bad idea. > . Yep- it _could_ be, true. The Op should come back when it\* is\*. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/24 "2015-10-07T20:08:55Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Why would it bankrupt the state? > > Don’t get me wrong. The SYG laws can be argued to be a bad idea (depending on the details). This new thing where it MAY be you get two trials MAY be a bad idea. > > But the idea that if you are innocent it don’t cost you nuttin is a some end of the world thing is just gawd fucking stupid IMO. Whether or not it would bankrupt the state depends on the resources of the state, but it could end up costing a lot. If everybody could get their legal fees paid then everyone would opt for a private attorney rather than a public defender, and those private attorneys would always bill for the maximum amount allowed by the state. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/25 "2015-10-07T20:11:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Since he wasn’t quoted in the two articles I linked, nor in my OP, and you didn’t quote his post either, no, I wasn’t considering him. > > What the fuck are you talking about? I didn’t bring up Zimmerman, and you clearly didn’t read the post you’re quoting. > > _Read the post you’re quoting._ Once you figure out what you’re talking about, we can have a debate about the SYG defense if you like. This thread is about SYG immunity. > Why would paying the attorney’s fees of _every single person accused of a crime and exonerated_ bankrupt the state? Really? Ah, didnt read his post, eh. But you were thinking Zimmerman. for the fourth time: _Again- Please explain the benefit of sending a otherwise law-abiding home-owner to (our overcrowded) prison for life due to what we consider a mistake in judgement?_ Hardly. Very very few people are found innocent at trial. A good prosecutor drops the charges or makes a deal if there’s any doubt. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/26 "2015-10-07T20:11:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why would paying the attorney’s fees of _every single person accused of a crime and exonerated_ bankrupt the state? Really? You made the claim. Do some math or cite some cite or whatever. To be honest, it amazes me to this day that the whole economic “fairness” of the American trial system has been so poorly addressed. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/27 "2015-10-07T20:14:46Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Whether or not it would bankrupt the state depends on the resources of the state, but it could end up costing a lot. > > If everybody could get their legal fees paid then everyone would opt for a private attorney rather than a public defender, and those private attorneys would always bill for the maximum amount allowed by the state. They get their legal fees if found not guilty. There’s a difference. A big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/28 "2015-10-07T20:16:13Z")
> [@](#): > > But you were thinking Zimmerman. No. I live in Florida, and practice law in Florida, so I read about SYG cases on a daily basis. Still, I’m sure your mind-reading talents will come in handy one day. > [@](#): > > for the fourth time: Again- Please explain the benefit of sending a otherwise law-abiding home-owner to (our overcrowded) prison for life due to what we consider a mistake in judgement? Did you have a lobotomy today? This thread is discussing Stand Your Ground immunity. This is a totally unrelated provision to the Stand Your Ground _defense_, which has nothing to do with homeowners anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/29 "2015-10-07T20:17:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > George Zimmerman isn’t experiencing enough nightmares to keep him from tweeting pictures of Trayvon Martin’s body. I saw the thread title and made a bet with myself that Zimmerman would be mentioned within the first 10 posts. So thanks. I owe me a cup of coffee. Zimmerman was never about SYG. The defense never mentioned it. It was always about self defense. Whether Zimmerman should have been in a position to need to defend himself can be debated, but not under the auspice of SYG. The only people putting Zimmerman and SYG together in the same discussion are the SYG opponents trying to cite Zimmerman as an impeachment of SYG. Might as well argue Celiac Disease to keep peanut products out of schools. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/30 "2015-10-07T20:22:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. I live in Florida, and practice law in Florida, so I read about SYG cases on a daily basis. Still, I’m sure your mind-reading talents will come in handy one day. > > Did you have a lobotomy today? This thread is discussing Stand Your Ground immunity. This is a totally unrelated provision to the Stand Your Ground _defense_, which has nothing to do with homeowners anyway. Did you not post _“whole Stand Your Ground scheme for a moment (which, based on our experience in Florida, is a dismal failure),”_? And did you not call this new bill "_will expand the “Stand Your Ground” law_ "? Thus, this thread\* is\* about SYG. Stop trying to move the goalposts and \*answer the damn question. \* So- for the \*\*fifth \*\*time: _Again- Please explain the benefit of sending a otherwise law-abiding home-owner to (our overcrowded) prison for life due to what we consider a mistake in judgement?_ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/31 "2015-10-07T20:28:39Z")
Yes, I posted those things. I posted some context, too, which you seem to have missed. I subsequently explained for the small brained exactly what this bill does and why it has nothing to do with those things. However, for the truly pea-brained, I’ll answer the question: people who make mistakes in judgment based on itchy trigger fingers should go to prison, just like people who drink before driving or drive too fast. We call it “the law,” and it applies even to “otherwise law abiding people.” > [@billfish678](#): > > You made the claim. Do some math or cite some cite or whatever. Fair enough. In Florida, the low-end private defense attorney up to about $5,000.00 to defend a misdemeanor case that is dismissed or pled out prior to trial. You could add as much as $10,000.00 for a case that is actually tried. Figure on about double those numbers for a felony case. To be honest, I have no idea how many prosecutions are brought in this state in a given year, but it’s in the tens of thousands at a minimum. So that’s $250 million a year on the extremely low end, before taking litigation costs into account. And before considering the increase in trials if defendants know their attorneys’ fees and costs will be paid if they proceed and are not convicted. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/32 "2015-10-07T20:36:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fair enough. In Florida, the low-end private defense attorney up to about $5,000.00 to defend a misdemeanor case that is dismissed or pled out prior to trial. You could add as much as $10,000.00 for a case that is actually tried. > > Figure on about double those numbers for a felony case. > > To be honest, I have no idea how many prosecutions are brought in this state in a given year, but it’s in the tens of thousands at a minimum. So that’s $250 million a year on the extremely low end, before taking litigation costs into account. And before considering the increase in trials if defendants know their attorneys’ fees and costs will be paid if they proceed and are not convicted. Right. The vast majority of criminal cases end in pleas, and it’s pretty reasonable to assume some of that has to do with the defendant’s confidence in his or her attorney. Public defenders get a bad rap, but they definitely don’t have the resources and tie available to private attorneys. It would be almost like having defense attorneys working on contingency. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/33 "2015-10-07T20:38:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fair enough. In Florida, the low-end private defense attorney up to about $5,000.00 to defend a misdemeanor case that is dismissed or pled out prior to trial. You could add as much as $10,000.00 for a case that is actually tried. > > Figure on about double those numbers for a felony case. > > To be honest, I have no idea how many prosecutions are brought in this state in a given year, but it’s in the tens of thousands at a minimum. So that’s $250 million a year on the extremely low end, before taking litigation costs into account. And before considering the increase in trials if defendants know their attorneys’ fees and costs will be paid if they proceed and are not convicted. I dearly hope your clients don’t depend on your math skills or (even knowledge of the legal system- you _have no idea how many prosecutions are brought in this state in a given year_- in a state where you practice law?) But you also forget the number of prosecutions\* where the client is found innocent. \* Only in _those cases_ would the client be paid legal expenses. Which is less than 10%. So, we’re talking _at most_ $25MM. with a annual budget of $73.6 \*\*billion. \*\* \*Do the math. \* ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/34 "2015-10-07T20:39:55Z")
Thats a start. (started this post to respond to RNATB before Dr Deths post). But you need to show costs for what the state pays to prosecute, what they pay for public defenders, what it costs for judges, what private individuals pay to defend themselves and blah blah blah… Sure, it PROBABLY would cost more if the state had to pay when it failed to “prove guilty” so to speak. But I doubt it’s a factor of 10. I’d bet its more like a factor of two at best. But this idea that people found “not guilty” are still financially fucked if they bothered to fight to NOT GO TO FUCKING JAIL FOR A LONG TIME is okay just floors me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/35 "2015-10-07T20:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > I dearly hope your clients don’t depend on your math skills or (even knowledge of the legal system- you have no idea how many prosecutions are brought in this state in a given year- in a state where you practice law?) Of course I don’t. First, I don’t practice criminal law. Second, there are 67 counties and thousands of municipalities, multi-jurisdictional districts and agencies that have criminal enforcement powers in the state. However, thanks to the [Office of the State Courts Administrator](http://trialstats.flcourts.org/TrialCourtStats.aspx) we can see that there were 410,000 misdemeanor and felony counts disposed of in all state courts between January 2013 and January 2014. So in fact, it looks like it would cost $2.05 billion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/36 "2015-10-07T20:47:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course I don’t. First, I don’t practice criminal law. Second, there are 67 counties and thousands of municipalities, multi-jurisdictional districts and agencies that have criminal enforcement powers in the state. > > However, thanks to the [Office of the State Courts Administrator](http://trialstats.flcourts.org/TrialCourtStats.aspx) we can see that there were 410,000 misdemeanor and felony counts disposed of in all state courts between January 2013 and January 2014. > > So in fact, it looks like it would cost $2.05 billion. Wow, _four whole minutes_ to find that out. Damn. Even I didnt think that \*everyone that Florida prosecuted was actually innocent. \*:dubious::rolleyes: Remember the State would only pay out of the accused was _found innocent._ Not plea bargained, not charges dropped- found innocent. That’s a tiny % of those who have charges brought against them- as you should know. So- for the sixth time: _Again- Please explain the benefit of sending a otherwise law-abiding home-owner to (our overcrowded) prison for life due to what we consider a mistake in judgement?_ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/37 "2015-10-07T20:49:34Z")
Congratulations. You are the first person to make my ignore list. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/38 "2015-10-07T20:52:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Congratulations. You are the first person to make my ignore list. Yeah, I ask the tough questions and point out huge glaring math errors- and deride your legal research skills when it turns out it took you \*four minutes \*to fact check a number you pulled out of your ass. For the seventh time:\* Again- Please explain the benefit of sending a otherwise law-abiding home-owner to (our overcrowded) prison for life due to what we consider a mistake in judgement?\* ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/39 "2015-10-07T20:53:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So- for the sixth time: _Again- Please explain the benefit of sending a otherwise law-abiding home-owner to (our overcrowded) prison for life due to what we consider a mistake in judgement?_ Damn. You are an ass. If a person was not reasonable in believing that he was in danger, and he kills someone, he should be in prison. If his belief was reasonable, he’s found innocent. It really is just that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/40 "2015-10-07T20:54:13Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Sure, it PROBABLY would cost more if the state had to pay when it failed to “prove guilty” so to speak. > > But I doubt it’s a factor of 10. I’d bet its more like a factor of two at best. I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. It’s entirely possible that 10 times as many people will proceed to trial if they know their costs are paid. _I_ would probably take a plea deal if I was accused of a crime today, knowing what it would cost to have my day in court. Obviously that depends on the nature of the deal and the charges. > [@](#): > > But you need to show costs for what the state pays to prosecute, what they pay for public defenders, what it costs for judges, what private individuals pay to defend themselves and blah blah blah… Why are the costs of prosecution relevant? Total public defender expenditure is hard to calculate because they are funded by circuit, but it looks to be about $300 million. And that covers about 70% of all criminal defendants. The problem is, those are primarily the career criminals, untreated mentally ill/handicapped, and so on. 90% of the people who actually go to trial are _not_ those people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844.md?page=3)