# Stand Even More Ground **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 7, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844 "2015-10-07T18:09:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/41 "2015-10-07T20:54:33Z")
I’ll bet you are really doubting the wisdom of starting this ill advised and poorly researched PIT thread, now, aren’t you? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/42 "2015-10-07T20:58:56Z")
> [@Abe\_Babe](#): > > Damn. You are an ass. > > If a person was not reasonable in believing that he was in danger, and he kills someone, he should be in prison. If his belief was reasonable, he’s found innocent. > > It really is just that simple. That’s exactly what SYG laws do. They just put the burden of showing the reasonableness on the prosecution, not the defendant. as the Op’s own cite sez: " _It has also served its intended purpose, exonerating dozens of people who were deemed to be legitimately acting in self-defense. Among them: a woman who was choked and beaten by an irate tenant and a man who was threatened in his driveway by a felon."_ \*\*Why do you want that woman to go to prison for life? \*\* Are you that depraved that you’d want a woman being choked out to go to prison, just because you don’t like SYG? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/43 "2015-10-07T20:59:49Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > But you need to show costs for what the state pays to prosecute, what they pay for public defenders, what it costs for judges What would be the relevance of these data? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/44 "2015-10-07T21:01:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s entirely possible that 10 times as many people will proceed to trial if they know their costs are paid. _I_ would probably take a plea deal if I was accused of a crime today, knowing what it would cost to have my day in court. Obviously that depends on the nature of the deal and the charges. > > Why are the costs of prosecution relevant? Total public defender expenditure is hard to calculate because they are funded by circuit, but it looks to be about $300 million. And that covers about 70% of all criminal defendants… Another number pulled out of your ass? And that’s exactly why the State should pay those costs. **So that innocent people don’t plead guilty just to avoid the costs.** Thank you for proving our point,\* Counselor.\* Because bad prosecutors would bring less bogus charges. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/45 "2015-10-07T21:03:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > What would be the relevance of these data? Because bad prosecutors would bring less bogus charges. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/46 "2015-10-07T21:14:09Z")
In case anyone is genuinely confused about the SYG laws, Florida adopted two unrelated statutory provisions in the same bill, and the legislature stupidly called the whole thing “Stand Your Ground.” One - the one that gets more attention - is the “Stand Your Ground” defense, which basically applied the preexisting Castle Doctrine to all places where the defendant “had a right to be.” What that means is that people no longer have a duty to retreat before using force outside their homes. At home, there was already no duty to retreat, which is why SYG made no difference to “homeowners”. The other - the one being expanded here - gave defendants the right to seek immunity from prosecution and civil suit for any justifiable use of force (essentially, self-defense) by requesting a preliminary hearing. Because this is a pretrial grant of immunity, the defense bears the burden of proof (by a preponderance of the evidence). What the bill I’m bitching about does is shift that burden of proof to the prosecution, and makes the state pay the defendant’s litigation costs. Shifting the burden of proof to the prosecution is not exceptionable, in and of itself; Florida already shifted the burden of proof on affirmative defenses in a trial setting way back when we were granted statehood (at common law, the defendant had the burden of proof on affirmative defenses, and still does in civil cases). The problem is that the prosecution would now be required to try a case twice to obtain a conviction, but only if the defendant claims self-defense. If the defendant’s defense is that somebody else killed the victim, or that it was an accident, or basically anything else, he gets squat. ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/47 "2015-10-07T21:34:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s exactly what SYG laws do. They just put the burden of showing the reasonableness on the prosecution, not the defendant. > > as the Op’s own cite sez: " _It has also served its intended purpose, exonerating dozens of people who were deemed to be legitimately acting in self-defense. Among them: a woman who was choked and beaten by an irate tenant and a man who was threatened in his driveway by a felon."_ > > \*\*Why do you want that woman to go to prison for life? \*\* > > Are you that depraved that you’d want a woman being choked out to go to prison, just because you don’t like SYG? Why do you so admire Hitler? That has about as much relevance to what you said as the accusation that I want the woman to go to prison for life. Can you point out where in the cites your statement is? The first article is three pages on my screen. Just let me know which one. The second article is only one page. That should be easy. Taking your quote at face value (a big stretch), that was clearly a case of self defense. What is your point? Nobody is trying to get rid of the affirmative defense of self defense. Do you honestly think that any violent crime suspect, no matter what the fact pattern, is not going to claim self-defense under this new law? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/48 "2015-10-07T21:37:34Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > They get their legal fees if found not guilty. > > There’s a difference. A big difference. True, but if you’re facing a murder charge you’re going to go for broke. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/49 "2015-10-07T21:38:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Can you point out where in the cites your statement is? Crap. I can still see quoted material. Oh well. It’s in [this article](http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_144425383328212&key=ce270d38103a630c3181db372a25a052&libId=ifhbfv67010004p6000DL58kw09dm&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D771303&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tampabay.com%2Fnews%2Fpublicsafety%2Fcrime%2Fflorida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on%2F1233133&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D771303%26page%3D2&title=Stand%20Even%20More%20Ground%20-%20Straight%20Dope%20Message%20Board&txt=read%20about), which I linked after the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/50 "2015-10-07T21:43:14Z")
Queue stupid people building mounds in their yard so they can stand on more ground. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/51 "2015-10-07T21:45:44Z")
No need for that. You just stand with your feet farther apart. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/52 "2015-10-07T22:02:33Z")
> [@Abe\_Babe](#): > > Why do you so admire Hitler? > > That has about as much relevance to what you said as the accusation that I want the woman to go to prison for life. > > Can you point out where in the cites your statement is? The first article is three pages on my screen. Just let me know which one. The second article is only one page. That should be easy. > > Taking your quote at face value (a big stretch), that was clearly a case of self defense. What is your point? Nobody is trying to get rid of the affirmative defense of self defense. > > Do you honestly think that any violent crime suspect, no matter what the fact pattern, is not going to claim self-defense under this new law? Godwinize already?😛 > **[Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133/)** > > Florida's "stand your ground'' law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free. It has stymied prosecutors and confused judges. • It has also served its intended... First para, first page. The OP’s very own cite that sez that woman would have gone to prison\* if not for SYG. \* Now, since you dont need SYG if you have Self-defense, it appears she needed SYG. Or ir just made her defense easier and cheaper, perhaps. Umm, nope, most will still plead out. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/53 "2015-10-07T22:12:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Congratulations. You are the first person to make my ignore list. Boy, this\* is \*a brilliant legal maneuver. Let me know how it works IRL- _counselor_; “Objection Your Honor, the opposing counsel is making too many good points, I have thus put him on my ignore list!”. :rolleyes: This is the difference between you and Bricker. You pulled a bullshit number out of your ass, a number that anyone in the legal profession in Florida could have found in just a few minutes- hell- _you_ found it in just a few minutes. But since you couldnt be arsed to research for a few minutes, you decided to pull a number out of you ass. Bricker would never do that. His _facts_ are always golden (of course, I think some of his opinions are crap, but some of mine are too). So yeah, we are mocking you- since you deserve it. And when asked a hard question, repeatedly- you _weasel_ instead of answering. “Well, it’s not home-owners” \*\*WEASEL! \*\*“Not about SYG” Objection, your very own OP made it clear you derided SYG. And then you hide, like the moral coward you are. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/54 "2015-10-08T00:00:35Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > What would be the relevance of these data? Seriously? Think about it for 5 seconds. When talking about budgets and “bankrupting” the system, you kinda know what the base cost is first. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/55 "2015-10-08T00:03:24Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > True, but if you’re facing a murder charge you’re going to go for broke. And how much do you think the State is paying to prosecute this trial? I bet it’s a fuckload more than the average Joe can scrap up to pay a private lawyer to defend himself. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/56 "2015-10-08T10:10:48Z")
Yeah, **DrDeth**. I’m putting you on ignore, too. I decided before RNATB. You think you can educate a fucking lawyer on Stand Your Ground? That’s the last straw. I came in here for either rants or some good analysis, and your constant inane posts are gunking up the works. Even I have the decency to post only a couple times and get out. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/57 "2015-10-08T11:39:05Z")
Make that three. Stupid is one thing, but life is too short to put up with aggressively stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/58 "2015-10-08T13:21:51Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And how much do you think the State is paying to prosecute this trial? > > I bet it’s a fuckload more than the average Joe can scrap up to pay a private lawyer to defend himself. Well, yes and no. In Florida, public defenders are paid slightly more than prosecutors. The problem is that the prosecution has a much larger budget for other litigation costs - expert witnesses and the like. Of course, the state also has a much higher burden. We’re getting off topic a bit, but I’ll try to explain. It’s true that access to defense counsel is a problem for everyone except the indigent, but having the state pay for their attorney’s fees _if they win_ is not going to help (even assuming it’s fiscally doable, which I doubt for the reasons discussed above). A criminal defense lawyer is not going to be able to take cases that he would not previously have taken. Why? Because we’d be getting into an effective contingency scheme in many cases. Let’s say Steve the Criminal Defense Lawyer has a potential client, John, but knows that potential client can’t afford to pay for his services. He’s not indigent, but the minor assets he has are not liquid and he’s on disability. However, John has been charged with a crime which now requires to pay the fees of anyone exonerated under the Criminal Defense Bill introduced by Senator **billfish**. So Steve takes the case. After a few depositions, it becomes clear that the evidence weighs against John even though he is factually innocent, and he is going to be convicted barring a miracle. The state is offering a plea deal which would result in probation instead of a certain custodial sentence. Any reasonable lawyer would tell John to accept it. But Steve doesn’t get a cent (or rather, will get only a few cents) if John pleads out. As a lawyer, he is ethically bound to advise John to take the deal. As a businessperson with rent, overhead, staff salaries and so on, that means he won’t even make enough to pay for the paper John’s file is printed on. So we don’t allow contingent fees in criminal law (or family law, because we want to encourage resolution of family law matters without litigation). So this won’t improve access to justice for anyone, because lawyers are not going to be able to take more cases than they previously would have. It _will_ help make innocent people whole, to a degree, but only those who could afford to pay lawyers in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/59 "2015-10-08T14:06:08Z")
> [@Abe\_Babe](#): > > Prosecution: “Here’s evidence that you killed X.” > Defense: “But it was self defense.” > Prosecution: “Here’s why it isn’t self defense.” I don’t know about America but over here in the UK self-defence is an affirmative defence. That is, the defendant has to prove that it was indeed self-defence. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/60 "2015-10-08T14:07:24Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Seriously? > > Think about it for 5 seconds. > > When talking about budgets and “bankrupting” the system, you kinda know what the base cost is first. No, the starting point is “Do we assume that there is plenty of space in any budget the system has now?” I’ll admit I know nothing about the court system in Florida, but I’ll bet you a nickel they have been slashing the budget, reducing hours, etc. Why do I assume that? Because I think it’s happening in the whole country. So, if you want to add a cost to a system that is already struggling, the starting place is not “how big is the budget now”? The starting point is “how much will this add?” We know it will only save money if prosecutors stop bringing charges in the first place. If that’s the goal, well, there are even easier, more honest, ways to get there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844.md?page=4)