# Stand Even More Ground **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 7, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844 "2015-10-07T18:09:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/81 "2015-10-09T12:09:26Z")
It’s difficult to find hard statistics on the number cases in which there was a Stand Your Ground pretrial immunity hearing. _The Tampa Bay Times_ has a page on Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law with sortable columns on: Year - City - County - Accused Name - Victim Name - What Happened - Weapon - Deaths - Outcome In my non-scientific random review of individual cases in each category (since my time on this isn’t billable, I didn’t look at each of the 237 cases but there are some interesting ones), it appears that not all of the cases had a SYG pretrial immunity hearing, in some cases I looked at the SYG defense was raised at trial. The page lists George Zimmerman and we know he didn’t have SYG pretrial immunity hearing, so it looks like the _Times_ may have over-included cases. From the law’s enactment in 2005 into 2013, the page lists 237 cases that may concern the Florida Stand Your Ground law. **Outcomes** : (and my non-lawyerly guess if there was SYG pretrial hearing) 63 cases - **Defendant Not Charged** - The incident occurred, it was investigated, no charges were filed so there was no need for a SYG pretrial immunity hearing. 45 cases - **Defendant Granted Immunity** - There was a SYG pretrial immunity hearing and the defendant prevailed and would be eligible to recover legal fees and other costs of the SYG pretrial immunity hearing. 33 cases - **Defendant Plea** - If there’d been a SYG pretrial immunity hearing, the defendant didn’t prevail or they wouldn’t have have entered into a plea agreement and these defendant wouldn’t be eligible to recover legal fees and other costs of the SYG pretrial immunity hearing. 40 cases - **Defendant Guilty** - If there’d been a SYG pretrial immunity hearing, the defendant didn’t prevail as it went to trial and these defendant wouldn’t be eligible to recover legal fees and other costs of the SYG pretrial immunity hearing. 34 cases - **Defendant Acquitted** - If there’d been a SYG pretrial immunity hearing, the defendant didn’t prevail as it went to trial and these defendants wouldn’t be eligible to recover legal fees and other costs of the SYG pretrial immunity hearing. 22 cases - **Pending** - Some but not all of these defendants may have SYG pretrial immunity hearing and if they prevail, they would be eligible to recover legal fees and other costs of the SYG pretrial immunity hearing. So based on the data the _Times_ compiled and my sometime iffy interpretation, it appears there were **only** 45 instances in 8 years where Florida would be on the hook for the defendants’ legal fees and other costs of the SYG pretrial immunity hearing. If the State can’t prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt at the SYG pretrial immunity hearing, maybe they don’t have a strong enough case to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/82 "2015-10-09T13:06:11Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You have a loser pays system in Florida? That’s extremely unusual in the US, I think. Not in general, but there are a number of specific areas where the loser pays _costs_. > [@dba\_Fred](#): > > I hereby proclaim that the State should refrain from filing charges where a there is a legitimate SYG defense 😉 > [@](#): > > If the State can’t prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt at the SYG pretrial immunity hearing, maybe they don’t have a strong enough case to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. Maybe they don’t. But it’s ridiculous that only people who claim to have used force in self-defense have to be tried twice. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/83 "2015-10-10T18:28:54Z")
I’m not savvy when it comes to criminal defense or what have you, that is, I’m a layman. So let me try to understand this new provision in an analogy: Under this new provision, if say, Tyrion from Game of Thrones had to shoot an arrow into his own father out of self-defense, the prosecution would have to first prove, using evidence, it was self defense in some pre-trial, then prove it again if it goes to the courts in front of the King at King’s Landing? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/84 "2015-10-10T18:33:59Z")
The prosecution would have to prove that it was _not_ self-defense. But otherwise, nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/85 "2015-10-10T18:45:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The prosecution would have to prove that it was _not_ self-defense. But otherwise, nailed it. Okay, got it. That’s a bigger difference. So, in the case the prosecution wasn’t able to prove Tyrion did not act out of self defense, then King’s Landing would pay the lawyer and court fees, rather than the Lannisters (Tyrion’s family)? ---
**Author:** ![splatterpunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3be4f8/32.png) [@splatterpunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/splatterpunk)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/86 "2015-10-10T19:38:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Tell ya what- I’ll go along with the opinion of the confirmed lawyer. You can go along with a anonymous member of a MB who claims to be one. (Not that I am saying he ain’t one, mind you…) **an** anonymous member, you stupid shithead. Did you even make it past the third grade? Tell you what - I’ll go along with the message board poster who’s not an illiterate mouth breather. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/87 "2015-10-10T23:15:57Z")
> [@splatterpunk](#): > > **an** anonymous member, you stupid shithead. Did you even make it past the third grade? Tell you what - I’ll go along with the message board poster who’s not an illiterate mouth breather. Ooh, he found a typo!:eek: He is _so_ smart. You made at least three errors here. Starting with failing to capitalize the first word of a sentence. Can you find the other two? \*\*Gaudere’s Law \*\*! ---
**Author:** ![splatterpunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3be4f8/32.png) [@splatterpunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/splatterpunk)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/88 "2015-10-11T02:36:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ooh, he found a typo!:eek: He is _so_ smart. It wasn’t a typo, you dumbass. You do that shit _all the time_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/89 "2015-10-11T05:08:34Z")
> [@splatterpunk](#): > > It wasn’t a typo, you dumbass. You do that shit _all the time_. Then I guess you couldn’t find your own errors… \*And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? \* ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/90 "2015-10-11T09:57:14Z")
Wouldn’t the unsuccessful act of seeking SYG immunity kinda interfere with mounting an “I-didn’t-do-it” defense? Or is the fact that a defendant made the attempt excluded from the jury’s consideration? Also, who has been, and who would be making SYG immunity decisions, juries, or magistrates/judges? (Just, I tend not to think of pretrial activities, such as hearings, as having juries, unless maybe grand juries.) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/91 "2015-10-11T11:40:29Z")
> [@splatterpunk](#): > > It wasn’t a typo, you dumbass. You do that shit _all the time_. Hey, let’s see _you_ try being all smart and stuff while satisfying your oxygen needs via your pie hole. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/92 "2015-10-13T20:58:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then I guess you couldn’t find your own errors… Ellipses are three dots dumb-ass. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/93 "2015-10-13T21:37:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Wouldn’t the unsuccessful act of seeking SYG immunity kinda interfere with mounting an “I-didn’t-do-it” defense? Or is the fact that a defendant made the attempt excluded from the jury’s consideration? > > Also, who has been, and who would be making SYG immunity decisions, juries, or magistrates/judges? (Just, I tend not to think of pretrial activities, such as hearings, as having juries, unless maybe grand juries.) No, SYG immunity is handled only on pretrial motion. So the fact that the defendant requested an SYG immunity hearing will never be part of the record before the jury. Of course, some of the evidence given at that hearing may subsequently be admissible and may be enough to defeat an “i didn’t do it” defense. All pretrial hearings take place before the judge, before the jury is empaneled (or even selected). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/94 "2015-10-13T22:06:25Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Ellipses are three dots dumb-ass. \*\* Gaudere’s Law!\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/95 "2015-10-14T16:55:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > \*\* Gaudere’s Law!\*\* Like you’re even smart enough to udderstand a law. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/96 "2015-10-14T17:32:30Z")
He makes a good point, **DrDeth**. You’re stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/97 "2015-10-20T18:27:59Z")
How can we monetize this? There seems to be a reality show in here somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/98 "2015-10-21T12:53:48Z")
Not sure where you’re going with that. _Judge Judy: Capital Case_? Turning the whole state into a sunny Thunderdome? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/99 "2015-10-21T13:00:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not sure where you’re going with that. _Judge Judy: Capital Case_? Turning the whole state into a sunny Thunderdome? Something like this. Maybe there’s a way to attract tourist/killers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844/100 "2015-10-21T13:11:01Z")
I don’t think we need much help on that front. This is the state that produced Ted Bundy and Aileen Wuornos. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stand-even-more-ground/733844.md?page=4)